Moe - that's a loaded question and a totally different scenario.
Also, if I've offended you personally in this thread, I apologize. I have no idea what your relationship is to this topic to be completely honest. I just have a strong opinion as to the sensitivity and seriousness to it. I've stated multiple times I completely understand why people get abortions. I hope you and others can understand different thought processes as well.
you seem to be working too hard to achieve this conclusion, Moe.
As I understand the Jewish tradition or faith, the basic idea of having children is considered paramount. I could quote a few scriptures from the Law, maybe. The reason someone like "Dutch" could choose an IVF procedure would be primarily to overcome some problems in following a basic command of God, or doing a positive thing.
When I studied human genetics, I learned that a majority of fertized ova are incompetent to develop into a live birth. They naturally fail to thrive. Doctors doing an IVF procedure will "select" those fertized ova that look more promising, and implant those, and still only a smaller fraction do progress to a live birth.
Rather than try to do a gotcha on Dutch, I'd respect you more if you could put it in perspective. Some people are trying to have children. Dutch thinks that's good. Some people are trying not to have children. Dutch seems to be saying he thinks that's bad. I'm on Dutch's side to that point.
Lots to respond to here…
First of all, Archie, you haven't offended me at all. And as far as my personal "connection" to the issue (aside from being a woman myself and a mother) my first encounter with PP was in college when I wanted a prescription for birth control and the student health center referred me to a Planned Parenthood clinic near campus. I also volunteered at that clinic for a year (doing mostly reception desk work) and then when I graduated, at a clinic in Chicago.
Of 18 PP clinics in Illinios, I think only 7 of them actually perform abortions. Neither of the clinics I was involved with provided abortion services - but they did provide counseling and referrals for both abortion and adoption.
I understand that there are many people who view abortion as taking a human life and find it morally wrong for that reason. It is something that is alive and the abortion does kill it, I won't deny that. However, I will not say that an 8 week embryo or a 15 week fetus is a life with rights that supersede the woman in whom it lives its parasitic type of existence. And I do firmly believe that a woman has a right to choose not to carry a pregnancy to term if she doesn't want to. Ideally, I'd like to think that (unless there are extenuating medical circumstances) this is something a woman would chose only once in her lifetime, and then use a reliable method of birth control.
The other issue for me is one of access. The wealthy and better connected will always be able to find (and pay for) someone to terminate their pregnancy. I think the option should be available, at least up to the 20th week of pregnancy, to those who might not have the resources to find proper care otherwise.
I do get angry at those who imply (some in a very arrogant and rude manner) that any female who gets pregnant unintentionally is a slut, or ignorant or a low-life or whatever insulting term they think is the most offensive to apply to her situation. Or that somehow, because there are people who facing infertility, that the woman is somehow obligated to carry her pregnancy to term. It's a carry-over of the "if she got raped, she must have done something to deserve it" mentality.
I also get angry at posters who continue to post incorrect information, even when provided with information that directly contradicts their point of view. And some posters have such an over the edge manner of posting that makes it even more irritating. This includes ignoring all the health services that PP provides, as well as the fact that PP is NOT an alternative for health insurance.
My own personal viewpoint on IVF as it relates to abortion is that if someone is so violently opposed to abortion that they think it should be outlawed, then IVF should also be outlawed. If someone thinks that adoption is the ONLY option that should be available for an unintended pregnancy, then it seems to me that it should also be the ONLY option for infertile couples. Well, not quite, but if an abortion is wrong in one case, it is equally wrong in the other. I honestly don't understand how someone can really argue otherwise.
A women facing an unintentional pregnancy should have the SAME options as an infertile couple. And in a way, to me, killing embryos for the purpose of conceiving a child is even more wrong than a woman facing an unintentional pregnancy doing the same thing, because with IVF, they are intentionally creating embryos that they know will be destroyed.
