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Shad said:
SEASON GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'05-'06 80 47 28.8 4.2-10.1 .421 1.1-2.7 .416 1.2-1.7 .704 0.4 2.0 2.4 4.5 0.2 0.8 2.9 1.8 10.8

^^^^ Deron William's Rookie Year


Season Team GP GS MIN FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT% OFF DEF TRB AST STL BLK PF TOV PTS
2014-15 UTH 82 41 22.2 1.77 5.07 .349 1.01 3.22 .314 0.24 0.39 .625 0.33 1.27 1.60 2.41 0.50 0.17 1.79 1.44 4.79

^^^^^^^ Dante Exum's Rookie Year

There you go. DWill was better in literally almost every stat.
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He was older and far more experienced. That was the point of my post. And yet Deron was never good enough to get this team even mildly into title contention.
 
gregbroncs said:
I think that rebuild failed because they tried to do it in a hurry. I think they were pulling one over on the fan base far more then than they are now. I'll give KOC credit for this, back then they wanted to be in the playoffs and did not care about winning a title or trying to rebuild the right way. He did what his bosses wanted and he did it really well. But if you think than team was assembled with a title in mind your fooling yourself. KOC had tons of money and a high draft pick in a really good draft. How did DL have more than that? Also KOC had a potential cornerstone piece already on the roster in AK. People forget just how good AK was that year those scrubs made the playoffs.
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1. You think this team is being built with a championship in mind more than those Deron-Boozer teams? How do you figure? How is this approach better? Be specific.

2. KOC inherited AK, Harpring, and virtually nothing else. DL inherited a playoff team with two fringe all-stars, and 4 young lottery picks on rookie contracts -- two of whom are the current franchise cornerstones. What the ****?
 
I guess getting to the playoffs 4 out of the 6 seasons he played here (including 3 confernce semifinals, and 1 conference finals) isn't good enough for gregbroncs. Call that never good enough is laughable. We have a team border-lining 8th place and you call DWill never good enough? You need to check some stats out before you type and post. LOL! Making you look bad brah.
 
I changed my mind. The jazz suck, their players suck, management sucks, we will never go after free agents and free agents will never come here, the best years are in the past, no players will stay on the jazz when they become unrestricted free agents, our young guys will never amount to anything.
 
GVC said:
1. You think this team is being built with a championship in mind more than those Deron-Boozer teams? How do you figure? How is this approach better? Be specific.

2. KOC inherited AK, Harpring, and virtually nothing else. DL inherited a playoff team with two fringe all-stars, and 4 young lottery picks on rookie contracts -- two of whom are the current franchise cornerstones. What the ****?
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I think they are trying to do it right this time. I think the last team was assembled to make the playoffs and nothing more. Whether it works this time I'll wait to see. I'm not sure this approach is better, I'm optimistic that it is and I for one am still seeing improvement in this team. Eventually, maybe even this year they will need to make a move. I'm just don't believe that the pessimism you and Shad feel is fair or warranted yet.
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THIS WAS A PLAYOFF TEAM WITHOUT THE INJURIES. That is the part I don't get. Maybe the west was weaker this year, or maybe the top 4 teams were just so good the rest had to lose more. Maybe the bottom (like the Jazz) were stronger so the middle had to lose more. It's a little disingenuous to just assume the west was weaker because the middle didn't win 50 games, a lot goes into that. But despite all of that this team was in the playoff race up to the last week of the season. I said before the season that, that was what I expected. The Jazz exceeded my expectations this year because they did what I expected despite the staggering # of injuries they suffered.
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KOC had and spent a ton of money bringing in Okur and Boozer. It kept the team in the playoffs, that was the goal. If that was the goal now I think they would have employed the same approach. Because they haven't I have to believe that they are trying to do it right this time. If that were the goal they would have tried to keep Millsap.
 
Shad said:
I guess getting to the playoffs 4 out of the 6 seasons he played here (including 3 confernce semifinals, and 1 conference finals) isn't good enough for gregbroncs. Call that never good enough is laughable. We have a team border-lining 8th place and you call DWill never good enough? You need to check some stats out before you type and post. LOL! Making you look bad brah.
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4 out of 6 years? Wow what an accomplishment. The conference finals was a fluke and they got blown out because of it. They got beat down soundly every time they played a real contender in the playoffs. He did that with a lot of experienced pieces around him, this current team does not have that yet.
 
gregbroncs said:
I think they are trying to do it right this time. I think the last team was assembled to make the playoffs and nothing more. Whether it works this time I'll wait to see. I'm not sure this approach is better, I'm optimistic that it is and I for one am still seeing improvement in this team. Eventually, maybe even this year they will need to make a move. I'm just don't believe that the pessimism you and Shad feel is fair or warranted yet.
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THIS WAS A PLAYOFF TEAM WITHOUT THE INJURIES. That is the part I don't get. Maybe the west was weaker this year, or maybe the top 4 teams were just so good the rest had to lose more. Maybe the bottom (like the Jazz) were stronger so the middle had to lose more. It's a little disingenuous to just assume the west was weaker because the middle didn't win 50 games, a lot goes into that. But despite all of that this team was in the playoff race up to the last week of the season. I said before the season that, that was what I expected. The Jazz exceeded my expectations this year because they did what I expected despite the staggering # of injuries they suffered.
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KOC had and spent a ton of money bringing in Okur and Boozer. It kept the team in the playoffs, that was the goal. If that was the goal now I think they would have employed the same approach. Because they haven't I have to believe that they are trying to do it right this time. If that were the goal they would have tried to keep Millsap.
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What does 'doing it right' even mean? It's amazing how little you've said...this reads as nothing more than blind faith/wishful thinking. What is DL doing better than KOC? How is it more likely to get the Jazz a championship?

Safe to assume you're backing off the assertion that KOC had more to work with? Any chance you'll answer a single question I've asked?
 
gregbroncs said:
4 out of 6 years? Wow what an accomplishment. The conference finals was a fluke and they got blown out because of it. They got beat down soundly every time they played a real contender in the playoffs. He did that with a lot of experienced pieces around him, this current team does not have that yet.
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Because DL is too busy doing nothing and bleeding assets...

KOC got **** done, tried to add talent when possible, and still ended up lucking into a better draft prospect than DL. Tank or take advantage of the loads of cap space and young players to add talent through trades and free agency: Those are DL's options. Doing nothing and hoping it works is bound to fail.
 
GVC said:
What does 'doing it right' even mean? It's amazing how little you've said...this reads as nothing more than blind faith/wishful thinking. What is DL doing better than KOC? How is it more likely to get the Jazz a championship?

Safe to assume you're backing off the assertion that KOC had more to work with? Any chance you'll answer a single question I've asked?
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Trying to win it all without ruining your chance by over paying one dimensional players like Boozer and Okur.

I guess it is blind faith. Your saying more than I am? All you've really done is bitch about the direction they are going. And showing your utter lack of faith in anything they've done. They are taking the approach of building from within instead of throwing money at over priced FA's that may or may not fit together. Last time they did the opposite, they threw money at Boozer, AK and Okur and hoped they would work, that team was seriously flawed.
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I see potential in this team, and because they are trying to build this way it takes more time than last time. They could easily scrap the whole thing and try the same approach as last time. Just let Hayward, Favors, and Burks expire and throw money at whomever the better FA's at the time are. I think our real difference is you don't see potential in this team and I do. Call it blind faith, or disagree. Whatever you feel like, but I still like the direction of this team. I like the potential of this team. I am willing to be more patient than you are. I don't even really give a **** what the franchise is saying, I see potential on this roster. So I have faith in the direction they are going.
 
GVC said:
Because DL is too busy doing nothing and bleeding assets...

KOC got **** done, tried to add talent when possible, and still ended up lucking into a better draft prospect than DL. Tank or take advantage of the loads of cap space and young players to add talent through trades and free agency: Those are DL's options. Doing nothing and hoping it works is bound to fail.
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They don't have it because their players are too young to have that experience.
 
gregbroncs said:
Trying to win it all without ruining your chance by over paying one dimensional players like Boozer and Okur.

I guess it is blind faith. Your saying more than I am? All you've really done is bitch about the direction they are going. And showing your utter lack of faith in anything they've done. They are taking the approach of building from within instead of throwing money at over priced FA's that may or may not fit together. Last time they did the opposite, they threw money at Boozer, AK and Okur and hoped they would work, that team was seriously flawed.
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I see potential in this team, and because they are trying to build this way it takes more time than last time. They could easily scrap the whole thing and try the same approach as last time. Just let Hayward, Favors, and Burks expire and throw money at whomever the better FA's at the time are. I think our real difference is you don't see potential in this team and I do. Call it blind faith, or disagree. Whatever you feel like, but I still like the direction of this team. I like the potential of this team. I am willing to be more patient than you are. I don't even really give a **** what the franchise is saying, I see potential on this roster. So I have faith in the direction they are going.
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Those teams also collected draft picks, and re-signed their young players. It's not either-or. You can develop players AND acquire players through trades and free agency. Do you really think a couple extra mid-1sts is going to turn this team into a contender?
 
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gregbroncs said:
They don't have it because their players are too young to have that experience.
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Uh...Favors and Hayward have more experience (6 seasons each) than either Boozer or Okur when KOC signed them (2 seasons each). The top players on those Jazz teams had LESS NBA experience when they first made the playoffs than the top players on the current team.
 
gregbroncs said:
Trying to win it all without ruining your chance by over paying one dimensional players like Boozer and Okur.

I guess it is blind faith. Your saying more than I am? All you've really done is bitch about the direction they are going. And showing your utter lack of faith in anything they've done. They are taking the approach of building from within instead of throwing money at over priced FA's that may or may not fit together. Last time they did the opposite, they threw money at Boozer, AK and Okur and hoped they would work, that team was seriously flawed.
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I see potential in this team, and because they are trying to build this way it takes more time than last time. They could easily scrap the whole thing and try the same approach as last time. Just let Hayward, Favors, and Burks expire and throw money at whomever the better FA's at the time are. I think our real difference is you don't see potential in this team and I do. Call it blind faith, or disagree. Whatever you feel like, but I still like the direction of this team. I like the potential of this team. I am willing to be more patient than you are. I don't even really give a **** what the franchise is saying, I see potential on this roster. So I have faith in the direction they are going.
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Throwing money at Okur, Boozer, and AK were A LOT more enjoyable to watch then ANY OF THE LAST 6 SEASONS. In the last 6 seasons we have been to the playoffs 1 time and got swept. KOC got stuff done and pretty much always kept us relevant (Drafting DWill, getting Boozer and Okur, made it successful)((AND GUESS WHAT? LOL! Boozer,Memo, and Okur were hurt in these years too! We still made the playoffs!))
 
GVC said:
Uh...Favors and Hayward have more experience (6 seasons each) than either Boozer or Okur when KOC signed them (2 seasons each). The top players on those Jazz teams had LESS NBA experience when they first made the playoffs than the top players on the current team.
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Hit it right on the head. Boozer, Okur, and DWill had far less NBA experience and still made it to the playoffs more than any current player. It's time for some major changes, whether that's players or the front office.
 
Part of it is Utah is not a sexy destination for free agents. Just face it, It is the truth. Big fanbase since they have the whole state but a lot of fans act like players are a piece of meat. Treat them like crap after they leave. No reason Utah couldn't be the Green Bay of the NBA. A small market team who wins, Oh wait that is the Spurs but still small market teams can be beastly. GB in Football, St Louis Cardinals in MLB, Spurs in the NBA..
 
gregbroncs said:
He was older and far more experienced. That was the point of my post. And yet Deron was never good enough to get this team even mildly into title contention.
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Better then anyone else the Jazz have had since however. He made the WCF against spurs with a roster with a guy like Okur starting. Hayard just gets them, to lottery after lottery. Making the WCF with that roster shows how good Deron was before the injuries.. Lost to the Spurs, No shame in that. The Jazz ceiling at the moment is lottery again next year, or if they have a fantastic year its a playoff series and they lose within 6 games. That is the celing of the Jazz as the current roster is at the moment.. GSW, Spurs, OKC, CLippers are clearly the top 4 team and I don't see the Jazz winning but maybe one playoff game against them
 
If you se potential in this team then its called BLIND FAITH because anyone with even a little bball iq wil ltell you the celing is not high for this roster. Lack a go to guy. I said the Blazers would be better this year and so many of you called me names BUT yet I was hundred percent right. Nuggets roster is more promising then the JAzz. If you are a fan then that is great just be a fan but when you want to talk hoops and be taken serious you cant be a Homer
 
GVC said:
Develop homegrown talent for whom? Trade when? If Gordo walks for nothing, won't that at least get some of the apologists to start questioning DL's competence?

Last year? What about the year before? Or the year before that? Or the year before that? We're going into DL's 5th season as GM (this is his 4th full offseason). The best player he's traded for is Shelvin Mack, who couldn't even get PT on a treadmill team in the Eastern Conference (with that said, it was a nice little trade). The best free agent or waiver acquisition he's made is for Trevor Booker. In 4 seasons as GM.

If you're not tanking, you have to be active in adding talent, especially if you operate in Utah. DL might be the least active GM in the league. For me, this offseason and Gordo's future represent DL's last chance to get something right.
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Remember during DL's first summer when someone on here posted the ending of a game of Windows Solitaire and called it a good day at DL's office? People were pretty butthurt about that IIRC.
 
Shad said:
(Drafting DWill, getting Boozer and Okur, made it successful)((AND GUESS WHAT? LOL! Boozer,Memo, and Okur were hurt in these years too! We still made the playoffs!))
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Why did we make the playoffs those years? D-will. How did we get d-will? Free agency? Trade? Nope. Drafted him. Just like we drafted our core players and we have a bunch of future picks too.

Getting that star player is the first and hardest step. Then you toss money at guys like boozer and okur.

If we didn't draft d-will and still threw money at boozer and memo then how good would we have been? Not very good. And when boozer and memo go down with injury? Really really bad.
This team doesn't have d-will caliber player yet but otherwise are set up just as good as that team. Or better. And one of these guys on the team or that we get in the next few years in draft might be the d-will caliber player and then suddenly we are very very good since we already have a ton of really good 2nd options and role players.

So koc got the third pick in a draft that had d-will and cp3 available for him to choose from. And that means he did a great job? Without d will that team wouldn't have been any good. Hell, he should have taken cp3 anyway. So in hindsight he screwed up.
 
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