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Move On From Hayward?

#bern said:
If Hayward averaged 4 more points a game, but gave up 4 more points a game, people here would be more likely to call him worthy of a max contract IMO. Same net result, but points are sexy.

That's why it drives me nuts when people are arguing for Jamal Murray, McCollum, Devin Booker and even Rodney Hood over Hayward. Hood is the best defender of the bunch, and he's merely average. McCollum is meh, and the other two are turnstiles...but they can score lots of points, so somehow that makes them more alpha. It's a pretty poor argument if you ask me.
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It's the same reason why people think Hood is better than Hayward. They see a couple of games where these players get super hot and can't miss from deep, so they think they are the better players.
 
#bern said:
If Hayward averaged 4 more points a game, but gave up 4 more points a game, people here would be more likely to call him worthy of a max contract IMO. Same net result, but points are sexy.

That's why it drives me nuts when people are arguing for Jamal Murray, McCollum, Devin Booker and even Rodney Hood over Hayward. Hood is the best defender of the bunch, and he's merely average. McCollum is meh, and the other two are turnstiles...but they can score lots of points, so somehow that makes them more alpha. It's a pretty poor argument if you ask me.
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People exaggerate it but there is a benefit of having a true #1 scorer (even if just average defender). Everyone knows their roles, the game is simpler in crunch time. No senseless back and forth passing. The Jazz have led the league in passes but last or near last in assists for two years now.
 
stitches said:
Because unless you expect to be a contender next year, you will be faced with the same decision next year, only then the value you can get for those players would be lower(because their cheap contracts would be one year closer to ending and their new team would have one less year of service guaranteed from those players). There is a difference between acquiring a great player on 2 year cheap deal vs acquiring a great player on 1 year cheap deal.
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Good point.
I have just done research and found that almost every team in the league drafted their best player. Lebron was a free agency signing. Harden, cp3 and 2 or 3 others were traded for.

So with that knowledge if we max Hayward then we are kind of saying he is our guy and we will try to get help around him. Which makes us an early exit playoff treadmill team imo.

I think Hayward is not special and is somewhat easily replaceable so I would rather use him to try to get a top end talent guy. If we did trade him for a #3 pick or something then I think we would still be an early exit playoff team anyway with a better chance at something more.

If Gobert or favors gets us a better pick (#1 or 2) than Hayward then I would be fine with trading them instead. I don't think they do.
 
Jazz4ever said:
People exaggerate it but there is a benefit of having a true #1 scorer (even if just average defender). Everyone knows their roles, the game is simpler in crunch time. No senseless back and forth passing. The Jazz have led the league in passes but last or near last in assists for two years now.
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The Jazz were also last in possessions per game. If you put them exactly at league average, Hayward averages 21 ppg based on his points per possession. Go towards the top of the possessions in the league, and he's at 22 ppg, and nobody is saying he isn't an alpha. Like I said, the whole points argument people are making is a dumb, and uneducated stance.
 
fishonjazz said:
I think he said he would take those players over Hayward.
I don't think he said they are better.
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Yeah, apologies to [MENTION=4667]LoPo[/MENTION], I missed that part... I still don't agree about some of them, but if we are talking about long-term value the ones I had problem with are more reasonable.
 
I mean, I'm just a little perplexed on Hayward not being an alpha. He's obviously not a star, but he's really good.

Our team had the 11th best point differential in the league (or close to it) with a bunch of key injuries and our best pg was literally somebody else's 3rd stringer. Our depth is pathetic. All things considered, Hayward led us pretty damn well.
 
#bern said:
The Jazz were also last in possessions per game. If you put them exactly at league average, Hayward averages 21 ppg based on his points per possession. Go towards the top of the possessions in the league, and he's at 22 ppg, and nobody is saying he isn't an alpha. Like I said, the whole points argument people are making is a dumb, and uneducated stance.
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Good post
 
#bern said:
The Jazz were also last in possessions per game. If you put them exactly at league average, Hayward averages 21 ppg based on his points per possession. Go towards the top of the possessions in the league, and he's at 22 ppg, and nobody is saying he isn't an alpha. Like I said, the whole points argument people are making is a dumb, and uneducated stance.
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With more volume though TS% generally sinks, and at .560 Hayward is on the very low end already for an "alpha"
Beyond this though, elite defenders like Leonard simply takes him out of the game. He doesn't have the length to shoot over them, and his bullying moves are ineffective. Here are the box scores against Leonard this year.

https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828251
team worst -42
https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828419
team worst -27
https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828747
team worst -19
 
And no, Hayward probably isn't worth $30/yr, but that's how the market is going. That's what players of his caliber are going to get paid. For me, I'd rather pay Hayeard that then pay Barnes twenty something million a year.
 
Jazz4ever said:
With more volume though TS% generally sinks, and at .560 Hayward is on the very low end already for an "alpha"
Beyond this though, elite defenders like Leonard simply takes him out of the game. He doesn't have the length to shoot over them, and his bullying moves are ineffective. Here are the box scores against Leonard this year.

https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828251
team worst -42
https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828419
team worst -27
https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828747
team worst -19
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Leonard takes everybody out of their element. The guy bothers LeBron, Durant, etc. I don't expect Hayward to excel verse him. But hey, great point! Leagues best defender takes other good players out of their element. Shocker.

As for the TS%, Hayward actually had a higher usage rate and higher TS% in the 14-15 year. I wouldn't be concerned. I think what you're missing is how much our offense hurts our players.
 
I'm just saying, average out the possessions for our team, and Hayward is pretty close to a 21/6/5 guy that plays damn good defense. We wanna move on from that?
 
#bern said:
I'm just saying, average out the possessions for our team, and Hayward is pretty close to a 21/6/5 guy that plays damn good defense. We wanna move on from that?
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Bruh, Jazzfanz. They want to ignore our team having terrible injury luck and put the blame on that fact we don't have a guy who can score 22 ppg, because that extra point per game makes all the difference.
 
#bern said:
And no, Hayward probably isn't worth $30/yr, but that's how the market is going. That's what players of his caliber are going to get paid. For me, I'd rather pay Hayeard that then pay Barnes twenty something million a year.
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I think this is largely an emotional element involved. Paying any NBA player outside of Durant/Lebron/Curry/Westbrook seems ridiculous because 30 million is way more than what we are use to paying any NBA player. When people realize that is what the market is, they will understand and be more objective in their reasoning.
 
#bern said:
I mean, I'm just a little perplexed on Hayward not being an alpha. He's obviously not a star, but he's really good.

Our team had the 11th best point differential in the league (or close to it) with a bunch of key injuries and our best pg was literally somebody else's 3rd stringer. Our depth is pathetic. All things considered, Hayward led us pretty damn well.
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And Hayward has upped his scoring average every single year.
 
King Cy said:
I think this is largely an emotional element involved. Paying any NBA player outside of Durant/Lebron/Curry/Westbrook seems ridiculous because 30 million is way more than what we are use to paying any NBA player. When people realize that is what the market is, they will understand and be more objective in their reasoning.
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Good post
 
Jazz4ever said:
With more volume though TS% generally sinks, and at .560 Hayward is on the very low end already for an "alpha"
Beyond this though, elite defenders like Leonard simply takes him out of the game. He doesn't have the length to shoot over them, and his bullying moves are ineffective. Here are the box scores against Leonard this year.

https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828251
team worst -42
https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828419
team worst -27
https://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828747
team worst -19
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What a dumbass retarded ****ing post.

You know Hayward is the only player with a 100 or more possessions against Kahwi Leonard to avearge over a point per possession? So of all the ****ing alphas out there, Hayward is doing better than any of then (or at least better than most)vs Leonard.

Take a seat.
 
King Cy said:
What a dumbass retarded ****ing post.

You know Hayward is the only player with a 100 or more possessions against Kahwi Leonard to avearge over a point per possession? So of all the ****ing alphas out there, Hayward is doing better than any of then (or at least better than most)vs Leonard.

Take a seat.
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Eh...I watched all these games. Hayward could do nothing. You watched them too and and know it.
Two years ago, maybe Hayward did better, but the recent results is a far more accurate predictor of the future. If we were to play them in the playoffs it could be cringe worthy.
 
King Cy said:
I think this is largely an emotional element involved. Paying any NBA player outside of Durant/Lebron/Curry/Westbrook seems ridiculous because 30 million is way more than what we are use to paying any NBA player. When people realize that is what the market is, they will understand and be more objective in their reasoning.
Click to expand...

It's not one or the other it's both. The market for players are going up however if you're paying B+ Hayward like A Leonard then you are creating a losing situation. Eventually you'll have to pay all your other B or C+ players. And sooner or later somebody's leaving. Since Gordon is a B+ he's going to need more help. It's a conundrum. The best thing for smaller less glamour markets to do is try to create a winning situation with guys on rookie contracts. Let them mature and start winning together and hope winning trumps chasing max dollars. Or find a bunch of lose pieces that's affordable that fit well.

Paying Hayward like James and Curry is the equivalent of trying to beat the Warriors going small. They are by far the best at it so do something different. Take advantage of their weaknesses instead of trying to beat them at their strengths when you are under manned.
 
da ThRONe said:
It's not one or the other it's both. The market for players are going up however if you're paying B+ Hayward like A Leonard then you are creating a losing situation. Eventually you'll have to pay all your other B or C+ players. And sooner or later somebody's leaving. Since Gordon is a B+ he's going to need more help. It's a conundrum. The best thing for smaller less glamour markets to do is try to create a winning situation with guys on rookie contracts. Let them mature and start winning together and hope winning trumps chasing max dollars. Or find a bunch of lose pieces that's affordable that fit well.

Paying Hayward like James and Curry is the equivalent of trying to beat the Warriors going small. They are by far the best at it so do something different. Take advantage of their weaknesses instead of trying to beat them at their strengths when you are under manned.
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Every player coming off a rookie contract will go for max dollars out there, it's their first chance to get "paid".
Barnes turned down a great offer and situation in GS to get the absolute max.
 
One of the problems with the max is that they assume that's what players like Bron, Curry, Durant, etc are worth. They're actually underpaid.
 
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