Official Sign DeAndre Jordan Thread (Note from Jazzfanz: Thread not official)
- Thread starter Favors Flave
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Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
He is right, they are not elite post players. I take it you're very young, but I strongly recommend you find some footage of a prime Duncan, Olajuwon, Mchale, or even Jordan to see what a true post player looks like. There is some footage of Hakeem working with Dwight from last summer on Youtube, and even at age 45, Hakeem made Howard's post up game look embarrassingly bad. Howard is decent in the post because of pure power. Pau is solid in the post, but gets exposed against someone his own size. Randolph has elite moves but is limited by his 2" vertical. Bosh, Love, and Blake are obviously face up power forwards, c'mon now.
Favors Flave
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STATS STATS STATS STATS STATS! It's not all about stats I hate to tell ya. Millsap is a very good PF but is undersized, no denying it. His shooting stroke is awesome though for a PF. Millsap is most effective when he goes balls out and goes for all those rebounds and hustle plays. This is why he needs to be the 6th man, to conserve some energy and let him play against either tired starters or most likely the opposing teams less talented bench. He did awesome IMO as a starter but lost energy as the year went on. The defense needs to be addressed and Favors was the best defender and rebounder out of the 3 bigs. He boxes out, shows on pick and rolls and plays great help side and man to man D.
Big Al is a very good PF/C but most claim he is undersized for C. Big Al plays good position defense but that isn't in the stats. He has to go against a lot of the all stars and most of the times they make tough shots and it makes Big Al look bad according to STATS. Big Al has also showed the capability of playing decent weak side defense at the beginning of the season when the Jazz were winning. I remember games where his length was effecting a lot of people's shots and was getting a lot of blocks. When they started to lose, he lost that fire which kind of bugs me and his defense got worse. One thing he does need to do is box out more. Sometimes he also got Boozer disease and let the opposing player drive the lane for a lay up. Those things can be improved with some work in the offseason and/or a defensive assistant coach added. Having Favors next to Al also helps Big Al's D which is another reason Millsap needs to be a 6th man.
But all in all, we finally have a good core of bigs and can improve upon it even more with a pick like Kanter/Biyombo and/or getting a defensive C like Jordan. If you get too much bigs, then you shop either Big Al/Millsap and you get a solid package in return. But trading Millsap/Al just b/c Millsap is undersized or Al b/c he played some lazy D is crazy. The worst part on here was trading the guys for absolutely nothing. I'm glad that KOC didn't do that Millsap for Lopez and Pietrus deal. Both are BENCH PLAYERS, there is a reason both of those guys got under 18 mins per game
Big Al is a very good PF/C but most claim he is undersized for C. Big Al plays good position defense but that isn't in the stats. He has to go against a lot of the all stars and most of the times they make tough shots and it makes Big Al look bad according to STATS. Big Al has also showed the capability of playing decent weak side defense at the beginning of the season when the Jazz were winning. I remember games where his length was effecting a lot of people's shots and was getting a lot of blocks. When they started to lose, he lost that fire which kind of bugs me and his defense got worse. One thing he does need to do is box out more. Sometimes he also got Boozer disease and let the opposing player drive the lane for a lay up. Those things can be improved with some work in the offseason and/or a defensive assistant coach added. Having Favors next to Al also helps Big Al's D which is another reason Millsap needs to be a 6th man.
But all in all, we finally have a good core of bigs and can improve upon it even more with a pick like Kanter/Biyombo and/or getting a defensive C like Jordan. If you get too much bigs, then you shop either Big Al/Millsap and you get a solid package in return. But trading Millsap/Al just b/c Millsap is undersized or Al b/c he played some lazy D is crazy. The worst part on here was trading the guys for absolutely nothing. I'm glad that KOC didn't do that Millsap for Lopez and Pietrus deal. Both are BENCH PLAYERS, there is a reason both of those guys got under 18 mins per game
GVC
Well-Known Member
The only one on that list that falls below Al Jefferson is Chris Bosh, and clearly he is not a back to the basket player (Big Al will never develop a face up game nearly as efficient as Bosh's). All the others bring a lot more to the table than Big Al offensively and still manage to shoot better from the post. If a guy barely shoots at a league average level, and doesn't create better opportunities for his teammates from the post, how can you call him "elite"? Are you just a big fan of the push shot?
GVC
Well-Known Member
Actually, according to the stats, Big Al does a terrific job of manning up against opposing bigs (he also, statistically, defends the PnR well). His biggest problem is in transition, which should be nothing new to Jazz fans (Memo and Booze were equally bad).
jazzrule
Well-Known Member
Been reading all the good factual information, if I may let me give you my thoughts.
First let me say I love Millsap and would like to keep him as a 6th man. Second let me say that Jefferson needs to improve his jump shot, blocking out for rebounds, passing and playing defence against the pick and roll for the Jazz to have any chance of winning a championship with him as a starter.
Now let’s discuss some things. How about Jefferson's number of blocks against Lakers big men vs. Millsap's per game. You love stats see if you can find that one. You would have to look awfully hard to find where Millsap has blocked many of the Lakers’ bigs very often. I think Big Al's and Favors height and defence had a lot to do with us breaking the Lakers 17 games winning streak against the Jazz.
You don't like to hear height used as a reason to pick Jefferson over Millsap as a starter. Well get over it, because without height the Lakers have dominated us. Again it is not all about stats. The Lakers’ bigs scored almost at will against Boozer at center and Millsap at power forward. We could not stop them or compete with them in a seven game series without height. When we got close in the playoffs they would go to work and open the lead up again. The eye ball test is that with Jefferson and Favors playing against the Lakers we are some-what competitive, and should be more so with Favors getting experience and big Al making some improvements to his game. If Big Al does not improve his pick and roll defence, jump shot, passing and boxing out for rebounds, then I have no problem trading him away for a better big.
The bottom line is that unless Millsap plays power forward with a center the calibre of Dwight Howard he has little chance to ever win a championship. It is the Boozer syndrome again, against taller players Millsap cannot cut it come the playoffs, when the game becomes more of a half court game. No one will argue that Boozer is a better offensive player than Millsap, yet Boozer just had a 2 point game in the playoffs.
Yes, I know it is a team game and I appreciate your stats in that regard, but stats change in the playoffs. Like you said Jefferson wins over-all on individual stats against Millsap’s stats for last season, and remember that Jefferson was playing against taller players. I think Millsap’s numbers go down in many categories even more if he plays against the taller players Jefferson plays against during the regular season, and it would get worse during the playoffs.
Again Jefferson must improve in many areas for the Jazz to win a championship with him, but without a Dwight Howard type big man next to Millsap the Jazz have little chance to win a championship with him as a starting power forward. At least that is the way I see it and I think most posters will agree with that.
First let me say I love Millsap and would like to keep him as a 6th man. Second let me say that Jefferson needs to improve his jump shot, blocking out for rebounds, passing and playing defence against the pick and roll for the Jazz to have any chance of winning a championship with him as a starter.
Now let’s discuss some things. How about Jefferson's number of blocks against Lakers big men vs. Millsap's per game. You love stats see if you can find that one. You would have to look awfully hard to find where Millsap has blocked many of the Lakers’ bigs very often. I think Big Al's and Favors height and defence had a lot to do with us breaking the Lakers 17 games winning streak against the Jazz.
You don't like to hear height used as a reason to pick Jefferson over Millsap as a starter. Well get over it, because without height the Lakers have dominated us. Again it is not all about stats. The Lakers’ bigs scored almost at will against Boozer at center and Millsap at power forward. We could not stop them or compete with them in a seven game series without height. When we got close in the playoffs they would go to work and open the lead up again. The eye ball test is that with Jefferson and Favors playing against the Lakers we are some-what competitive, and should be more so with Favors getting experience and big Al making some improvements to his game. If Big Al does not improve his pick and roll defence, jump shot, passing and boxing out for rebounds, then I have no problem trading him away for a better big.
The bottom line is that unless Millsap plays power forward with a center the calibre of Dwight Howard he has little chance to ever win a championship. It is the Boozer syndrome again, against taller players Millsap cannot cut it come the playoffs, when the game becomes more of a half court game. No one will argue that Boozer is a better offensive player than Millsap, yet Boozer just had a 2 point game in the playoffs.
Yes, I know it is a team game and I appreciate your stats in that regard, but stats change in the playoffs. Like you said Jefferson wins over-all on individual stats against Millsap’s stats for last season, and remember that Jefferson was playing against taller players. I think Millsap’s numbers go down in many categories even more if he plays against the taller players Jefferson plays against during the regular season, and it would get worse during the playoffs.
Again Jefferson must improve in many areas for the Jazz to win a championship with him, but without a Dwight Howard type big man next to Millsap the Jazz have little chance to win a championship with him as a starting power forward. At least that is the way I see it and I think most posters will agree with that.
Favors Flave
Well-Known Member
I agree. He becomes lazy when he misses a shot and rarely hustles down the court to fight his man for position. This is why Favors needs to start with Al because Favors runs the court so well and can man the paint while Al gets back on D. Getting an athletic C would also help too. The only problem is a good problem with getting an athletic C. You would have to have Favors move to the bench or you could trade Big Al(Which I really don't want to do) or you could move the defensive C to the bench and have him play a lot when the opposing team has great post players or are a run and gun team
GVC
Well-Known Member
Obviously, Boozer + Millsap is undersized. With the way Memo and Boozer played against long athletic bigs, that also didn't work. But Favors is plenty big and athletic to handle the 5, and should only fill out more. I see no reason why Millsap can't handle playing the 4 if Favors does pan out as he could. He's had excellent numbers in the playoffs, including against the Lakers, and putting him next to a big athletic 5 (like, say, Favors in a year or two), could potentially work well.
With that said, I'm not opposed to trying Millsap at the 3, off the bench, or moving him if it helps the Jazz win. I just think having him on the court does more good for the Jazz than having Jefferson on the court. Further, I think a Favors-Millsap frontcourt is better all-around than a Jefferson-Favors or Jefferson-Millsap frontcourt (once Favors gets a little more experience).
The problem with using Sap at the 3 is on the defensive end. Defending @ 4 you are expected to use your hands, and have your hands on the offensive player on the block. Playing the 3 you are not to have your hands on the offensive player, and you need to rely on speed, lateral quickness, fighting through screens, and body positioning to guard your man. This is the problem of the Tweeners is that they don't have the size to use their bulk and height together effectively defending 4's, and they are not quick enough to guard most 3's without using their hands. Sap will pick up more fouls playing the 3, but I am not against it. I am against swapping him in the 4, then back to the 3 in the same game. If they use him at the 3, they should keep him there so he can perfect the motions, body control, and thought process. I think he has a silky smooth shot, and he could work out for us at the 3 if he can practice defending there in the off season.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
Clearly Sap can lose some bulk to gain lateral quickness. I'm not saying he can guard every SF in this league, but he is so much better offensively than anything else we have (assuming G-time is the SG) that it doesn't even make sense not to try it.
LogGrad98
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We are rebuilding. If we have a square peg but only a round hole to put him in, then he needs to be traded, not forced in just because he fits better than any of the other pegs we have.
GVC
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Does this not apply to Al Jefferson? That's my biggest concern.
If "him" and "he" refer to Jefferson than I agree. If it refers to Millsap, WTF?
LogGrad98
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It refers to Sap specifically in that response, but to any player on the team really. We cannot let sentiment keep us from making a move to improve. Sap is not a 3. No matter how much we wish he were. He is a PF in a SF's body, without the speed or ability to really play the 3. So we shouldn't force him into that spot "just cuz".
I like Sap and would love to see him with us long term, but he is not much beyond a very solid role player who can give you a break-out game from time to time. I would not hitch the future of the franchise to that pony.
But the same applies to everyone right now. If they don't fit, find a way to move them for a piece that does.
vslice02
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1 season from now, I agree Millsap doesn't look like a good fit - but presently I don't think the Jazz are in a position to say "Millsap doesn't fit here, we have to trade him for a wing." Unless a very attractive trade comes along, for next season I would keep Al, keep Paul, hope Favors keeps developing and proceed from there. Just because a player doesn't figure into your long-term plans doesn't mean you have to decide to keep/trade him in year 1 of the rebuilding process.
I would really like to see Utah trade Millsap, to add alittle more size to the 4-5 spot. Just wish we could maybe package Millsap,Bell for Foye,Kamen. Dang that would be such a great pickup. Foye was hugh for the Clippers, when Gordon went down. And a rotation of Jefferson, Kamen, Favors would be amazing!
GVC
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Are you out of your ****ing mind? That's just plain terrible for the Jazz.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Wait, what?