Red
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Well, this can't be good....
https://amp.theguardian.com/environ...ng-insect-numbers-threaten-collapse-of-nature
https://amp.theguardian.com/environ...ng-insect-numbers-threaten-collapse-of-nature
So Long, Bugs....
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fishonjazz
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Do you actually read the stuff you link?
Here's a few red flags...….
the article is a news report based on a peer-reviewed article published in a professional journal of "science" dedicated to a political agenda..... fear mongering about whatever evils the government needs to be given power to avert.
The authors of the study are quoted in this article, saying.....
"
“If insect species losses cannot be halted, this will have catastrophic consequences for both the planet’s ecosystems and for the survival of mankind,” said Francisco Sánchez-Bayo, at the University of Sydney, Australia, who wrote the review with Kris Wyckhuys at the China Academy of Agricultural Sciences in Beijing.
The 2.5% rate of annual loss over the last 25-30 years is “shocking”, Sánchez-Bayo told the Guardian: “It is very rapid. In 10 years you will have a quarter less, in 50 years only half left and in 100 years you will have none.”
categorically, such unbalanced statements are opinions or conclusions unsupported by actual data. A "scientist" writing about measurements discusses stuff like what data shows.
about 20 years ago, I tried to become a beekeeper, but the bees all died the first year..... some kind of insect infestation was directly affecting the bees, worldwide. People were alarmed, beekeepers all over the country were losing their whole business to the plague. But there was an invasive species coming in.... killer bees that were attacking people all over the country. Hollywood made a movie about it, showing people unable to get away safely, horrifically covered in killer bees which seemed to be eating the victims alive.
But hey... good news…. your article has a comment about honey bees.....
"Bees have also been seriously affected, with only half of the bumblebee species found in Oklahoma in the US in 1949 being present in 2013. The number of honeybee colonies in the US was 6 million in 1947, but 3.5 million have been lost since.
So.... already recovered from near "extinction" twenty years ago to about half the record levels of 1947. Amazing.
So now I can try again to establish a honey bee business.
The author, in the last article, admits this...
"A small number of adaptable species are increasing in number, but not nearly enough to outweigh the big losses. “There are always some species that take advantage of vacuum left by the extinction of other species,” said Sanchez-Bayo. In the US, the common eastern bumblebee is increasing due to its tolerance of pesticides.
So in the part of the country that was first, and most abused with extensive modern farming applications of unstudied pesticides marketed by unscrupulous corporates like Monsanto, a pesticide-resistant strain has become the survivor bee...…
Well, my attempt at beekeeping was in 1996. Colony Collapse Disorder.... caused by a mite that was parasitic on bees.
So I just googled bees and found an article that seems informative..... but which within its assertions, says CCD appeared over a decade later than that....
https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/04/17/bee-apocalypse-was-never-real-heres-why-12851
who to believe.... who to believe....
I think I'll go outside and clean some of the bee blobs off my windshied. In California this past weekend, driving past blossoming orchards.....
But seriously....
since I bought my farm I have never used any pesticides at all. Not one ounce... but in abject ingnorance I did buy some alfalfa seed 15 years ago that had been treated with something believed to be a long-lived problem. Never again, I promise.
There's a sort of cult following that is growing.... concerned about chemicals in our food and intensive corporate practices that wants all-natural food.
I'm in.
and, yes, speaking of "Red Flags".... Red's article contains a real red flag.... the "review" was based on "the best" articles the writer could find.... about 73 "selected" articles which showed obvious value for running out this thesis in the most alarming way he could.
that's not real science, bro.
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Red
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No, I just look at the headlines. Clown....
Lol, says babe. Sorry, but your paranoia is too well established, and, besides, this is simply a ridiculous statement on your part.
And you should know. How's your Cult-Leader-in-Chief doing these days?
Seems like the decline described, as well as the importance of insects, would justify alarm, but whatever. Typical babe.
And you're no authority. But you pretend to be one, on every subject known to man.
bugs have proven, across many eras of earth history and whatever extinction events, to be survivors. millions of varieties, incredible massive numbers....they dominate "Life" on earth.
Our massive corporate interests, controlling governments worldwide, promoting globalist fascism, are a direct threat against all life on Earth as we have known it. But no fear, they have robots waiting in the wings to play their games with. Well, except for this..... after our pollution holocaust, after our firestorm of nuclear devastation, and after all the possible damage mankind can do to this planet..... the bugs will still be here, by the millions. And a few humans, I believe.
I am reporting your post, Red, to globalist Colton and Master Jason, who run this little political site, as a "star performance" for which they should immediately reward you as worthy of another "red star".
Paranoia is too strong a term for humor, really. It should be used sparingly, for such occasions as government officials who fear a change in the Presidency might undermine their job security, or the future of the planet.
The art of global management is established science supported by overwhelming numbers of grant-dependent intellectuals habitually looking over their shoulders for any sign of a change in the political winds. Stay close to your pack, bro, until you have done a few exercises in wandering away and foraging for your own thoughts.
Our massive corporate interests, controlling governments worldwide, promoting globalist fascism, are a direct threat against all life on Earth as we have known it. But no fear, they have robots waiting in the wings to play their games with. Well, except for this..... after our pollution holocaust, after our firestorm of nuclear devastation, and after all the possible damage mankind can do to this planet..... the bugs will still be here, by the millions. And a few humans, I believe.
I am reporting your post, Red, to globalist Colton and Master Jason, who run this little political site, as a "star performance" for which they should immediately reward you as worthy of another "red star".
Paranoia is too strong a term for humor, really. It should be used sparingly, for such occasions as government officials who fear a change in the Presidency might undermine their job security, or the future of the planet.
The art of global management is established science supported by overwhelming numbers of grant-dependent intellectuals habitually looking over their shoulders for any sign of a change in the political winds. Stay close to your pack, bro, until you have done a few exercises in wandering away and foraging for your own thoughts.
hey, al.... how many times have you been banned from this site, so far?
and why should anyone believe you? not one alleged fact to support your position, it's pure personal attack.
look, I know what this site is. I don't expect to change it. You do belong here, with most of the little "in-click" cult that is here. Progressives gung ho. Enjoy yourselves.
I think there might still be an occasional wandering Jazz fan who is just awe-struck that there are no conservatives in here, or who haven't learned yet that this forum is an exercise in internet political dominance.
I think it's a challenge, like one-on-one with a very tall opponent in basketball.... maybe one vs. oh say about twenty gawking "stars" who can't shoot or think.
I accept what you are, as is. that's why this is fun.
Red
Well-Known Member
This is true. The Cenozoic has been called the Age of Mammals, but you can easily make a case for the Age of Insects.
However, I found your initial comment to this thread to be flat out bonkers. And it just seemed like you were actually angry that scientists are reporting this trend. Which is downright bizarre. That science would anger you so much. Or that you would claim a political agenda for their conclusions. I'm sorry, bro, but that's nuts. And I don't say that lightly, because I'm into some crazy **** myself at times, but that was out there.
That's very kind of you, I'm sure. But what you really need to do is touch base with something resembling reality. Keep it up, and I'm gonna start feeling sorry for ya.
Seriously, get a grip. You're consumed by way too much nonsense. Come back to Earth. Why rail like that? It's only science, they're not lying to you in the service of any agenda. If you thought the article was alarmist, you should listen to yourself sometime.
No.
That initial comment was in that tone simply because I was replying to one of your reports, which I believe can reliably be considered "political", not "scientific" in nature. I mean, for sure, you wouldn't be dragging it in here for the sake of pure science.
Look, I don't really want to be just trolling the lib loonies. It is of interest to me to see what others have to say..... about.... crazy stuff.
I have rejected the "progressive" agenda as ideological and not based on fact. So many of the proponents have taken the view that "the cause" is sufficient to justify whatever it takes to push the dream. It is emotional in it's appeal to many, and it is accepted by many because it is pushed in the media and in "educational" venues.
But I am not a Republican of the "RINO" variety, or the "mainstream" variety like Mitt Romney or the Bush clan. I had democrat sympathies when I was a kid because I understood the R as "Rockefeller's Party". That is still pretty accurate, though David has died, the legacy goes on.
I believe Jay Rockefeller advanced the Clintons as "Democrats". Some rightwingnuts are out there saying Bill Clinton is an illegitimate spawn of some Rockefeller.... a "Rockefeller bastard", so to speak. But it is in my view irrelevant because regardless, Bill Clinton bastardized the Democrat Party.
In some sense, the idea of globalization has been there for some centuries. Spain had the idea when one of my ancestors was the King of Spain. England had it when one of my ancestors was King of England. The idea of market dominance and exercising global control has always had some dreamers reaching for a way to do it.
We have never had a pure ideology that has ruled the world. It has always been some set of folks who dominated because they worked together to get it done in some way, to some extent. But neither has global dominance ever really been global. The Chinese have always been able to play any European system, but they have never been able to extend their own globalist reach very well. The Russians have never really been very good at it, either.
The American ideal of political power that really rests with the people has never been very effective, either.
So, anyway, it is my view that the British have promoted the "progressive" era as a sort of continuation of their Empire, but they have had to give some cards into the hands of locals around the globe. The people who have cooperated with progressivism have become powerful locally where ever they are, to the exclusion of real democratic processes.
We do not have any kind of nirvana worth our efforts to promote. It would be better if our "elites" were really disconnected from their power bases, and people could do objective science and address real problems in this world, without all the political pushing.
If there is a coming catastrophe in climate, or bugs, ….. the "interests" are not genuine in their pushy ways. They will use whatever to promote their power, and that is the ultimate "catastrophe".
RandyForRubio
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I would like to crush you like a bug.
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but strip away the loony, horse apple, nonsense (approximately 98% of his post), and I actually agree with babe.
I had planned on making similar comments (with my own brand of loony, horse apples, thank you very much) after reading almost the whole article, only to read the final paragraph and then intellectually wince:
“Sánchez-Bayo said he had recently witnessed an insect crash himself. A recent family holiday involved a 400-mile (700km) drive across rural Australia, but he had not once had to clean the windscreen, he said. “Years ago you had to do this constantly.”
You want proof? There you have it.
What exactly that proves is up for interpretation. I personally thought it was the icing on the cake for that ridiculous, fear mongering, sack of dung. What sucks is that there probably IS a big problem with insect decline, and it may very well have much to do with global warming/AG, but that cute little article did nothing but placate the people who are already on the GW bandwagon, push the detractors even farther away, and (in my case anyway) make people who are on the fence, or not sure if they’re comfortable with where the left has been going the last decade or so, actually lean further right.
In other words, it was trash. I’m going to go take a shower now. I feel super gross.
I had planned on making similar comments (with my own brand of loony, horse apples, thank you very much) after reading almost the whole article, only to read the final paragraph and then intellectually wince:
“Sánchez-Bayo said he had recently witnessed an insect crash himself. A recent family holiday involved a 400-mile (700km) drive across rural Australia, but he had not once had to clean the windscreen, he said. “Years ago you had to do this constantly.”
You want proof? There you have it.
What exactly that proves is up for interpretation. I personally thought it was the icing on the cake for that ridiculous, fear mongering, sack of dung. What sucks is that there probably IS a big problem with insect decline, and it may very well have much to do with global warming/AG, but that cute little article did nothing but placate the people who are already on the GW bandwagon, push the detractors even farther away, and (in my case anyway) make people who are on the fence, or not sure if they’re comfortable with where the left has been going the last decade or so, actually lean further right.
In other words, it was trash. I’m going to go take a shower now. I feel super gross.
Red
Well-Known Member
I don't know why you feel that way. I love science. I was originally trained as a scientist(geology), although I eventually followed a different path. But you are so wrong. There was no political motives at all.
I thought it was very newsworthy. More then some of the stuff the press is concentrating on. It mentioned two earlier studies, which I was familiar with, and which allow open access to those studies.
Here is the one involving flying insects on protected lands in Germany:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0185809
And here is the study involving the decline of rainforest floor insects in Puerto Rico:
https://www.pnas.org/content/115/44/E10397
And here is the study the article summarized. Unfortunetly, this one is not open access, but if you're keenly interested, which I doubt frankly, you'd rather wallow in your own political motivations, you can purchase access:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320718313636
Now you, or anyone else, can bypass summaries in the popular press, and critique the actual studies. Be my guest, professor.
I don't know what you're doing, but I found the remainder of your comment here to be bat**** crazy. That's not my fault. You've been sucked into an InfoWars-esque world view that is as sick as it gets, as far as I'm concerned. That's your problem, and apparently it causes you to see everything I post to have ulterior political motives. These studies indicate insects are declining. That is troubling. But it's not my fault. Apparently, there are several driving forces behind this decline. Since they are an important part of the food chain, and play a role in human agriculture as well, we probably should be concerned with this development.
I think the evidence does point to a 6th major extinction event. I'm pretty familiar with the previous 5, since paleontology has been the love of my life, and was the reason I got into geology itself in the first place. But, it's not my fault. All you seem to want to do is shoot the messengers, the scientists, and ascribe political motivations to their studies. That's your opinion, you have a right to your opinion, but your're wrong, and you're also wrong in judging me as well.
You're angry at the scientists for publishing their research, and you're angry at me for simply pointing it out. You have a problem, as far as I can see. I did not expect this thread to be a hot ticket, we're talking bugs here, but I did not expect it to drive you buggy, either. I have no idea where the hell you are coming from, or why.
And I would like to sting you like a wasp.
There is nothing wrong with such anecdotal evidence. The study from Germany also cited such examples. It points to underlying problems. There's a place for anecdotal evidence in many scientific studies. And it's something non scientists can relate to, since it's likely the public can cite their own examples where the "windshield phenomenon" is concerned. I mean, I very much doubt it points to the possibility insects have developed strategies to avoid windshields. It points to a decline in insects. Anecdotal, but pointing to an underlying problem.
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fishonjazz
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I bet counting the current bugs in existence and then comparing that number with the number of bugs in existence is pretty difficult to do.
I have noticed that there are a lot less bugs in my area than there used to be. I used just walk on a sidewalk in the summer and there would be grasshoppers jumping around.
Now I often go throughout the whole year without seeing a single one.
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RandyForRubio
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I still see a **** ton of bugs. Harsh winter's can cause numbers to fluctuate. Get a mild winter and you'll see high numbers again. More Urban development doesn't help.
Buuuuut part of job is killing bugs, so LOL LOSERS.
Buuuuut part of job is killing bugs, so LOL LOSERS.
fishonjazz
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I think more people get their homes sprayed for bugs today than they did 50 years ago too. In fact I'm certain of it.
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fishonjazz
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Same for me when I go camping and fishing. It's nice to be honest lol.
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Red
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@babe, you choose to assume political motives for starting this thread.
Well, you choose to make these assumptions. Since we've often been at odds, I guess it is understandable. And I choose to assume you are consumed by a InfoWars-esque view of the world that makes your own assumptions of myself, and others here, inevitable.
But you are very mistaken. For 15 years, my wife and I, every Sept., visited a salt pond on the Atlantic coast here, where we could view monarch butterflies on their annual journey south. In my own case, I was a volunteer documenting the decline of these butterflies. Intitially, we would see hundreds per hour. There was a great deal of milkweed at this location, their preferred food, hence they stopped here on their migration. Two years ago, we saw less then a dozen per hour.
For the past 20 years, I have also been a volunteer documenting the health of Spring herring runs in Rhode Island. And their decline. There is no politics involved at all in any of this. There is a citizen volunteer's interest in science.
Now, I have a keen interest in extinction events. I have a large collection of fossils. I have several fossils of organisms that went extinct at a few of those extinction events. When the notion that the dinosaurs, and many other forms of life, became extinct during the event that marks the end of the Mesozoic Era, roughly 65 million years ago, as a result of a cometary or asteroidal impact, it dovetailed with still another long term interest of mine: meteoritics. I also have curated a meteorite collection since the early 80's. You really cannot collect meteorites, and actually appreciate them, without understanding the science. The chemistry is tough, but the petrology is not. And that science has become a leading edge in understanding both extinction events, and sudden alteration in the Earth's climate as well. For example, evidence has been developed that posits a asteroidal impact as the reason for the onset of what is known as the Younger Dryas, a return to glacial conditions beginning about 12,900 BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas
Now, in turn, that dovetailed with my interest in North American prehistory, and archaeology. The onset of the Younger Dryas also marked the disappearance of the Clovis culture. I curate a very large collection of artifacts from that era.
All these things are of keen interest to me. Extinction events and the history of life on Earth, through a study of paleontology. Meteoritics, and the results of impact events on the history of life, and as a cause for some extinction events. The possible role of impact events in human history. For instance, very recently, a huge impact crater was discovered beneath the Greenland ice cap. This may turn out to be the site of the impact event that triggered the Younger Dryas cold snap.
https://bgr.com/2018/11/15/greenland-meteorite-impact-crater-ice-sheet/
All of these personal interests of mine dovetail, and can be related to each other in understanding the history of life on our planet. Paleontology. Meteoritics. Archaeology, and in particular understanding the Paleo era in North America. Extinction events, and their causes. Including the one we may be experience now, and which includes the decline of insects.
In none of this, will you find a political motivation on my part. Maybe it is my fault you feel this way. Is it all because I have so much antipathy toward Trump? I don't know. I have not always had kind words for you in the past, so I don't take this opinion of yours personal. Maybe it's inevitable. But, man, are you ever mistaken, and I hope these comments of mine demonstrate just how mistaken you are.
Well, you choose to make these assumptions. Since we've often been at odds, I guess it is understandable. And I choose to assume you are consumed by a InfoWars-esque view of the world that makes your own assumptions of myself, and others here, inevitable.
But you are very mistaken. For 15 years, my wife and I, every Sept., visited a salt pond on the Atlantic coast here, where we could view monarch butterflies on their annual journey south. In my own case, I was a volunteer documenting the decline of these butterflies. Intitially, we would see hundreds per hour. There was a great deal of milkweed at this location, their preferred food, hence they stopped here on their migration. Two years ago, we saw less then a dozen per hour.
For the past 20 years, I have also been a volunteer documenting the health of Spring herring runs in Rhode Island. And their decline. There is no politics involved at all in any of this. There is a citizen volunteer's interest in science.
Now, I have a keen interest in extinction events. I have a large collection of fossils. I have several fossils of organisms that went extinct at a few of those extinction events. When the notion that the dinosaurs, and many other forms of life, became extinct during the event that marks the end of the Mesozoic Era, roughly 65 million years ago, as a result of a cometary or asteroidal impact, it dovetailed with still another long term interest of mine: meteoritics. I also have curated a meteorite collection since the early 80's. You really cannot collect meteorites, and actually appreciate them, without understanding the science. The chemistry is tough, but the petrology is not. And that science has become a leading edge in understanding both extinction events, and sudden alteration in the Earth's climate as well. For example, evidence has been developed that posits a asteroidal impact as the reason for the onset of what is known as the Younger Dryas, a return to glacial conditions beginning about 12,900 BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas
Now, in turn, that dovetailed with my interest in North American prehistory, and archaeology. The onset of the Younger Dryas also marked the disappearance of the Clovis culture. I curate a very large collection of artifacts from that era.
All these things are of keen interest to me. Extinction events and the history of life on Earth, through a study of paleontology. Meteoritics, and the results of impact events on the history of life, and as a cause for some extinction events. The possible role of impact events in human history. For instance, very recently, a huge impact crater was discovered beneath the Greenland ice cap. This may turn out to be the site of the impact event that triggered the Younger Dryas cold snap.
https://bgr.com/2018/11/15/greenland-meteorite-impact-crater-ice-sheet/
All of these personal interests of mine dovetail, and can be related to each other in understanding the history of life on our planet. Paleontology. Meteoritics. Archaeology, and in particular understanding the Paleo era in North America. Extinction events, and their causes. Including the one we may be experience now, and which includes the decline of insects.
In none of this, will you find a political motivation on my part. Maybe it is my fault you feel this way. Is it all because I have so much antipathy toward Trump? I don't know. I have not always had kind words for you in the past, so I don't take this opinion of yours personal. Maybe it's inevitable. But, man, are you ever mistaken, and I hope these comments of mine demonstrate just how mistaken you are.
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