Privileged by Kyle Korver

[gandalfe]

I thought there were two very powerful concepts in what Kyle wrote (not the only ones, just the two I want to address).

One was how he talked about privilege. As a straight, white, cisgender male I get a little defensive about everyone telling me how privileged I am, (and how oppressive we are). As a social worker with an MSW, I heard a lot about privilege. But it was never convincing. There was always a "yeah, but" in my thinking. Like I had an out. I'm not personally wealthy, have not oppressed a soul, try not to be racist, do not come from slave owning ancestors. SO while I could agree with straight-white-cisgender-male-privilege in general, it did not apply to me personally, that was the "yeah, but." However, What Kyle wrote convinced me otherwise. The clinching argument was the thoughts on being able to "opt out" of the issue. I do it all the time. Weeks, months, years, have gone by when I don't think about race at all. I did not worry about police violence, or red lining, racial inequality at all. Our Black brothers and sisters do not have that luxury. In this way Kyle convinced my to take white privilege seriously. It also feeds into the other powerful concept...responsibility.

The second concept I thought was powerful was what he had to say about guilt vs responsibility. What I got from his thoughts on the topic was that while we may not be guilty (as in responsible for) for what happened in the past, or for the way things are now, we are responsible for changing the way it will be in the future. What we do, say, even think today, will have an effect on the society we will live in tomorrow. In that way, we are all responsible for creating that future that is just and equitable for all. Those of us who have the choice to "opt out", have a responsibility to "opt in", and make a difference. Kyle showed the way by being open about his own thinking on the incident with Thabo and the police. He did not have to share his thinking, or "show his warts", but he did. I'm even more glad we brought him back.

Bravo.

 

[gandalfe]

So you honestly think that saying things are getting better is a crock of ****? Do you think the racism is worst now or than 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago?

Saying things are getting better and moving in the right direction does not mean you fail to recognize how wide spread racism is and how big of a problem it is.

This thread is about Korver's progression and courage to share some things that needed to be said. Others, as well as myself, have posted either support or experiences that make society better. You, yourself, even wrote how you've progressed.

Racism will probably never be eliminated. It's a sad reality and shows one of man's worst flaws and imperfections. The cure for racism is knowledge, and as a world, we're becoming more educated.

I can see how saying things are getting better can come across as tone-deaf. I'm not saying things are getting better to shutdown the claim that racism is a huge problem. We can do better. We need to get better.

Just ask Tamir Rice or Trayvon Martin what they think about race relations.

 

[Alfalfa]

Just ask Tamir Rice or Trayvon Martin what they think about race relations.

Like, what does it matter if "things are better"? Things in the 1800s were better for black people than in the 1700s (fought a civil war over slavery!). Should people have also posted that disclaimer before talking about racism then? What a meaningless thing to include.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

Here is the problem I have as a white liberal male... now hear me out. I thought like most that racism was slowly dying out with the internet allowing folks to venture out of their hate bubbles. But, ever since 9-11 America has changed to segregation everyone along racial divides again. After 9-11 white folks began to panic about the diversity of the world wanting to find them a safe space. Then Obama came around some of the most vile and ignorant behaviors started to even come from my own family members. I began to realize that racism come from fear that is shallowly buried under the surface. That hate is easier then understanding. Then Trump came using WW2 fear tactics that escalated racism to a whole new ugly level. That is a problem.

Here is another problem my liberal friends that want to apologize for everything and get offended for everyone. We can't live in a culture that tolerates hate. But, we also can't go around finding offense. I believe there are too many people that find it enjoyable to play the victim card. In the instance with Russ we don't know what was said by the fan. From the pro MAGA post he has posted before I can total see that he could have said those things exactly how Russ said. What if he did say go ice your knees? Because of Russ' reaction we are now all offended as am I. But what if he didn't and Russ using the victim card ran with it. I bring this up because Korver talked about the Thabo incident. We know that the cops crossed the lines. But, what is up with him being out on a back to back game night. Also, we don't know what the call the cops recieved was for how much danger they thought they were in coming to the scene. Finally, those being arrested need to not struggle any color. If I found myself in that situation I would lay down with hands behind my back. Now cops that use weapons to kill people without any real threat to themselves should be in deep trouble that is why I support black lives matter. If you do struggle or pull any type of weapon on an officer they should first use a taser or force to stop the situation. But, they have the right to go home alive you have the right to fight it in court not on the streets. So, if they do beat you up or taser the suspect it is on the suspect. They they should sue them if it is excessive use of force.

I'm bring this up because I think we have a both sides issue. One racists two those looking for offense. Now I know this is because of they way I was raised including my privilege. But, someone saying something against my mom, sister, or wife, church, etc. I don't find offense in. Because they are words they say more about the person saying them then me or them.

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[One Brow]

Why don't you quote the entirety of my message and leave this part out?

I found it unnecessarily repetitive.

I'm here clearly arguing against telling or suggesting people to shut up but you are interpreting it as not wanting to listen. Are you sure you are listening?

Indeed. In the context of this conversation, you're saying that you feel the need to talk, and don't like hearing that everyone is already aware of what it means to be white in America without your input. You think it's more important that they listen to you.

 

[One Brow]

Who will decide who will shut up and when?

People who live in the higher privilege status need to shut up and listen to those of lower privilege.

 

[Stoked]

I found it unnecessarily repetitive.

Indeed. In the context of this conversation, you're saying that you feel the need to talk, and don't like hearing that everyone is already aware of what it means to be white in America without your input. You think it's more important that they listen to you.

Not sure I totally agree. There are tons of nuances. Take story v the generalized “white” story. Silencing others v. Teaching and encouring them to listen. There is a difference

Eh, I’m drinking. **** it.

 

[One Brow]

But, we also can't go around finding offense. I believe there are too many people that find it enjoyable to play the victim card. In the instance with Russ we don't know what was said by the fan. From the pro MAGA post he has posted before I can total see that he could have said those things exactly how Russ said. What if he did say go ice your knees? Because of Russ' reaction we are now all offended as am I. But what if he didn't and Russ using the victim card ran with it.

Well, I would never advise against being skeptical.

However, our players, staff, owners, etc. know our fans pretty well, and many players have been on both benches in our arena. They know what our fans are like. AFAICT, to a person, they believed Westbrook.

Further, I can't think of a single thing Westbrook stood to gain by airing this grievance.

Put those two factors together, and it just seems to make sense to believe Westbrook.

Racism is an ordinary claim, and I believe it on ordinary evidence.

 

[Archie Moses]

Just ask Tamir Rice or Trayvon Martin what they think about race relations.

That question basically says you're incapable of critical thinking.

I hope society will progress as each year for the rest of my life and everyone's life. I'm sure there will still be trigger happy police officers in the future and I'm sure someone will be killed unjustly. Just like I'm sure another simple-minded person who's incapable of distinguishing progression from perfection will come along and make straw man arguments/points.

 

[gandalfe]

That question basically says you're incapable of critical thinking.

I hope society will progress as each year for the rest of my life and everyone's life. I'm sure there will still be trigger happy police officers in the future and I'm sure someone will be killed unjustly. Just like I'm sure another simple-minded person who's incapable of distinguishing progression from perfection will come along and make straw man arguments/points.

So, your point is that we're killing LESS black boys than we used to? And we should celebrate that? I mean, yeah, I guess that's true. Still sucks pretty hard for those who do get killed, tho.

 

[Archie Moses]

Like, what does it matter if "things are better"? Things in the 1800s were better for black people than in the 1700s (fought a civil war over slavery!). Should people have also posted that disclaimer before talking about racism then? What a meaningless thing to include.

No, no it's not. Understanding progression helps one understand the past, the present and the future better.

What I don't get is why people have their feathers ruffled because I say I think we're progressing as a society yet they bury their heads to the points I'm very well aware of.

 

[Alfalfa]

No, no it's not. Understanding progression helps one understand the past, the present and the future better.

What I don't get is why people have their feathers ruffled because I say I think we're progressing as a society yet they bury their heads to the points I'm very well aware of.

It's good to understand things, but not only is it irrelevant to the discussion, it's insulting. You're basically responding to a serious grievance by telling people to chill out.

 

[Archie Moses]

So, your point is that we're killing LESS black boys than we used to? And we should celebrate that? I mean, yeah, I guess that's true. Still sucks pretty hard for those who do get killed, tho.

Did I say anything remotely like that?

No, no I did not.

Your reading skills are poor, but your twisting words and translating things skills are top notch.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make at all.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I find it "funny" that so many white males on this site are telling other white males to "shut up and listen" but are not shutting up to listen themselves.
If we all shut up and listen on this site, nobody will be talking.

I don't want to hear from most of you on this issue because you say "shut up and listen to me because I'm right".
I want to have an actual conversation (back and forth) with someone I can talk to respectfully and not someone so full of themselves or full of disdain for someone with another point of view.

You have to have someone to listen to in order to "shut up and listen", and we just don't have that here... so to all of you advocating people shut up and listen... shut up.

I enjoyed listening to Thabo and Ekpe on the topic. To this point, I don't ever enjoy the "discourse" here on the topic.

 

[Archie Moses]

It's good to understand things, but not only is it irrelevant to the discussion, it's insulting. You're basically responding to a serious grievance by telling people to chill out.

It's not irrelevant. It's literally the discussion at hand.

Saying that I've witnessed change, progression and know the world is getting more educated does not mean, by any stretch that I think anyone should chill. I've clearly written I think it's a major problem. Acknowledging progression does not invalidate that.

Like, bro, what are you even arguing? You're clearly not reading what I'm writing.

 

[Archie Moses]

I find it "funny" that so many white males on this site are telling other white males to "shut up and listen" but are not shutting up to listen themselves.
If we all shut up and listen on this site, nobody will be talking.

I don't want to hear from most of you on this issue because you say "shut up and listen to me because I'm right".
I want to have an actual conversation (back and forth) with someone I can talk to respectfully and not someone so full of themselves or full of disdain for someone with another point of view.

You have to have someone to listen to in order to "shut up and listen", and we just don't have that here... so to all of you advocating people shut up and listen... shut up.

I enjoyed listening to Thabo and Ekpe on the topic. To this point, I don't ever enjoy the "discourse" here on the topic.

This. Good post


People like this make race relations worse.

It's actually disgusting how people have twisted my words to make it seem like I'm telling people to chill or that there's no race relations problems.

You have to think exactly like I do and if you don't, you're against me. I hate this simpleton mentality.

Smh...

 

[Tak]

Indeed. In the context of this conversation, you're saying that you feel the need to talk, and don't like hearing that everyone is already aware of what it means to be white in America without your input. You think it's more important that they listen to you.

Wrong, I'm saying that in any conversation, trying to silence any of the parts is counterproductive, for not every experience is the same and people are individuals. As you are now listening to Korver, and found it enriching, you shouldn't tell people to "shut up" because some blanket statement like "everyone is aware of what it means to be X in X" Under that premise, Korver shouldn't have written his opinion because everyone is aware of what it means to be him.

In other hand, how in the hell I would know what it means to be white in America, least of all tell people about it, if I'm not white nor American? You assume a lot.

You talk about shut up and listen, but it seems you do little of both. There's a saying in my country "Padre Gatica, predica pero no practica" it translates to "father Gatica(surname) he preaches but don't practice" Seems to fit.

 

[hhoop]

Who will decide who will shut up and when?

It’s an individual’s decision when to listen.

Guidance: if you find yourself explaining the experience of racism to an African American person, that’s a good time to stop.

 

[RJF]

White people try to explain racism to black people all the time. Men try to explain feminism to women all the time. Shutting up and listening to the people who are living the experience (and believing them) is what we all need to do. That is how we understand. There isn't really a consensus to be reached.

People in general(myself included) need to learn to listen more with the intent of hearing and less with the intent of responding.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

Well, I would never advise against being skeptical.

However, our players, staff, owners, etc. know our fans pretty well, and many players have been on both benches in our arena. They know what our fans are like. AFAICT, to a person, they believed Westbrook.

Further, I can't think of a single thing Westbrook stood to gain by airing this grievance.

Put those two factors together, and it just seems to make sense to believe Westbrook.

Racism is an ordinary claim, and I believe it on ordinary evidence.

Completely agree. If Russ for some reason just lost his Sh. T. Then leaning into the victim does have the benefits of having folks rally around him. He could have been going for a Jesse Smollett type of situation. Like I said the guys MAGA and previous tweets though make me agree completely with Russ.

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app