The moral high ground evaporated with Nixon
Police arrest Julian Assange at Ecuadorian embassy in London
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The moral high ground evaporated with Nixon
Meh...
The U.S. is in no way an innocent player. We are not "the good guys." But we are using our position to further an overall good future for mankind. Our CIA believes in making this world safer for Americans, so that we can live according to our constitution. I 100% believe that. I will not justify their actions. I will not support their means. I think they have ham fisted their way through the last 70 years and ****ed things up more than they have helped. I think they have committed war crimes. Have been responsible for evil dictatorships. They have the blood of millions of people on their hands. But I absolutely believe that their mission is intended to make the U.S. safer and more secure, even if they've failed more than they have succeeded.
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You hit it on the nose, for the U.S. But what about other nations, other people? What is even worse is that we've used the pretext to involve ourselves and interfere with other countries as foreign aid when we really have done this to further our own interests, very often to the detriment of these countries. This pride, this idea that we are better than anyone else is going to end up being our undoing. It's the fatal flaw of our culture.
I really disagree, I utterly reject that anything the CIA does improves anything for mankind, in terms of making the world safer for Americans I think it does the opposite. They certainly make the world safer for American corporations and their vested financial interests, often to the detriment of the citizens of foreign countries that are either being exploited by American corporations or oppressed by the dictators the CIA supports. The CIA is probably the single greatest cause of resentment and hatred toward the USA and in a lot of countries that are nominally friendly and allies. Sections of the left here speculate on the role the CIA played in the removal of the Whitlam government, many suspect (and I think it is likely) CIA pressured the Governor General to remove the government. (Whitlam was going to nationalise the mining industry which the US at the time had i think around a 30 percent share in) 40 years later sections of the organised left still despise America for this.
I could go on and list numerous countries in which the CIA has operated to remove democratically elected governments, sponsored death squads, thwarted non-Americans hopes of a better life, in many cases forced them to live under dictatorship for American interests. People around the world hate America for this, as John Pilger said "The price for Yaclav Havel may have been house arrest and unemployment for speaking out about the Soviet regime, for Nicaraguans it was US backed death squads."
Red
Well-Known Member
A short opinion piece suggesting "Assange's indictment is Trump's next step in his war on press freedom". With opinions of the news media perhaps at an all time low, despite freedom of the press being absolutely essential in a democracy(you may cry "fake news" till you're blue in the face, authoritarian leaders certainly love that battle cry, but a free press is one of the essential venues for speaking truth to power), Trump may have the upper hand in this objective.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...aks-trump-administration-war-on-press-freedom
"The case against the WikiLeaks founder is the justice department’s perfect vehicle to ultimately get what Trump wants".
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...aks-trump-administration-war-on-press-freedom
"The case against the WikiLeaks founder is the justice department’s perfect vehicle to ultimately get what Trump wants".
I don't think what I said is in disagreement with your post.
I said a few things that may have been misinterpreted.
First I said the U.S. is using it's position to further an overall good future for mankind. The U.S., not the CIA.
I said that our CIA believes in making the world safer for Americans. I didn't say they make the world safer, just that in their minds that's what they are trying to do. I believe that.
Finally I say that their (the CIA) mission is intended to make the U.S. safer and more secure. I used those words "believes" and "intended" on purpose.
I also say that the CIA has ham-fisted their way through the last 70 years and ****ed things up more than they've helped and have failed more than they have succeeded.
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There certainly have been competing interests even within the CIA itself. If you read some of the books by former agents, they started out with high-minded and altruistic motives. The information gathering and covert operations wings do seem to at times be in conflict as apparently occurred with the JFK assassination operation. Fletcher Prouty, a CIA operative, now deceased was one of the leading opponents of the covert wing. He wrote two books, The Secret Team, and The CIA, Vietnam and the Plot to Assassinate JFK. He suggests there is a secret power elite behind covert operations. The covert wing's mission is to protect corporate investment and interests around the world and suppress any political movements that would hamper corporate profits and influence in those countries. Generally, democratic leaders were suppressed or supplanted in favor of dictators who would give favors and license to American corporations detrimental to the interests of the people in those nations while taking huge kickbacks from the CIA. Sometimes this resulted in bloody affairs that were aided by weapons supplied by the CIA through the black market. One of those who learned of this and was about to expose one such operation was Sonny Bono when he was a California congressman. Unfortunately, before he made his report to Congress, he was murdered by hitmen and covered up as a skiing accident. Basically, the CIA is legalized organized crime, dealing heavily in drugs and weapons, while engaging in full-scale propaganda, all in the name of national security -- national security for whom, certainly not the American people.
I should add, I have three friends who were in the CIA, and one may still be connected to it, though I haven't seen him in at least 15 years. And they definitely believed they were serving an altruistic purpose. They are also very secretive about what they have done. One of them wrote a novel about it and I helped with the editing.
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Rubashov, I'm proud of you. Your answer was better than mine.
How about for hacking into U.S. government computer systems? No longer a crime? Fair game?
Assange is not a journalist. Not even close. He's not a whistleblower. He's not an unbiased teller of truth.
When I first posted this thread my mind was not made up like it is now. Assange has tried to do damage to MY nation and has avoided doing similar damage to other nations, namely Russia. He has an agenda and it is to hurt the U.S. and help Russia.
NPC says he hopes Trump had nothing to do with the arrest. Sleep soundly, NPC, he didn't. You can be sure of that.
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That is absolute b.s. What proof do you have of that, aside from the massive amount of disinformation that is being spread by our intelligence agencies. So you think what he is being charged with, releasing the video of those a-holes in the helicopter murdering civilians in Iraq like they were dolls in a shooting gallery is hurting our nation?
Have you seen it? It's the one that Chelsea Manning leaked to Wikileaks.
https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/
The U.S. tried to conceal this and put Chelsea Manning in prison for releasing it to Wikileaks. Now they want to get Assange. You think you can support your nation for this. It's absolutely despicable.
Not only that, two children were shot but saved by a soldier, Ethan McCord, who came on the scene shortly after. Now this same soldier has come under hard times because he also has spoken out in defense of Manning:
So you still think our government is worth defending now?
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Furthermore, do you know the story of Pat Tillman, the NFL player who went to Afghanistan and was "killed by friendly fire" after speaking out against the war? Our government actually assassinated him. The proof is in the autopsy. Check it out if you don't believe me.
The Thriller
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Wow... this thread... wow
Took a dark nose dive real fast. That Alex Jones, Cassandra Fairbanks, 4chan, conspiracy crap is some pretty scary stuff.
Took a dark nose dive real fast. That Alex Jones, Cassandra Fairbanks, 4chan, conspiracy crap is some pretty scary stuff.
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This is not Alex Jones. Have you seen the film leaked by Manning that convicted her? This is da truth, my friend.
I got this line off of the conservative radio talk show crew..... although they differed widely on opinions about Assange per their varied stances on civil liberties and the wonderfulness of authoritarian guvmints they think are doing the "right stuff".... Assange was placed in the same box with all the "leakers" and propagandist orgs doing the Trump Dump.....
yes we will prosecute Assange for colluding with Obama's boy Chelsea to get guvmint dirt out on the line..... and then we will go after Obama's Trump spy ring and Hillary's Rockefeller Media hoaxsters/America Haters.
This is war, as has long been the idea behind leveling the superpower imbalance in the new globalist vision.....
I think Assange is plenty smart, and on the ordinary peoples' side, committed to truth whatever it takes to get it out for us. I'd make a deal with him and make him an honorary American citizen with a "Medal of Freedom."
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Red
Well-Known Member
i am the very last person you will ever convince that you will be successful in this endeavor. There will be a reckoning coming and you, sir, are very much on the wrong side of history.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
But but but... Assange and Wikileaks are all about transparency! They’re not trying to hurt America and help Russia by helping trump win. They just want transparency. They’re not a political actor, they’re the free press!
There you go again with that pathetic Marxist/Progressive dogma of "history" being on your side. Really, it's a rehash of the Christian "Jesus is Coming" or the Islamic 12th Imam or whatever. It's hogwash.
you believe in a dream. It isn't real.
besides your intellect is on the wane already. did you really think I said I believed what I'm hearing from the conservatives who want Hillary prosecuted, and Obama?
Here's the reality. Deep State is a huge network of some varied interests who for the day may have common cause, but at the end of the day they are individuals acting on their beliefs/interests/ideals, or for some perceived self-interest. Many of them are "compromised", meaning you can't get them to cooperate in an prosecution effort, or any cleanup effort, voluntarily. The kinds of "compromise" are practically infinite. A few know they will live in a concrete box the rest of their lives if they're "outed" and actually prosecuted.
I don't know much about Trump, really. He appears to have been an outsider to the Republicans Party.... make that the Rockefeller Party…. who galvanized some conservative Americans and others, some working folks of the union clan, and maybe some significant black organizers as well....people he's worked with who know him.
I thought perhaps he was "Hillary's Perot", along the lines of how Ross Perot, who simply hated the Bushes, ran in 1992 and enabled Bill Clinton to win.
I believe he has no significant ideology, but he considers himself a red-blooded American and can't stand having American interests around the world compromised. He knows a good deal.....and a rotten one.
The globalists have got the bee in their bonnet for leveling the world's superpowers, for giving China a day in the sun provided China will play ball. But even China they will not permit to have such global hegemony they can't control it.
At this point I think Trump has got the support of important elements of the globalist community and he will in some fashion put his shoulder to that wheel and push the good work along.
I'm not a globalist. I think all nature is proof of a different reality than the functional realization of that dream. We prosper better when there is not that kind of power misdirecting humanity. Globalism, like any fascism, will prove self-limiting by failure. The best we can do as a society, or as individuals, is act in our own interests.... perhaps with some good science or overall education if we can actually generate such "education" without it being taken over by propagandists for one cause or another.
I think we have to reserve judgment on stuff like Thrillers bit above..... this is a high stakes war..... and the players have got all kinds of schemes for implicating or falsifying the action to make their opponents look bad.
I don't think Trump is going to permit the prosecution of Hillary or Obama. But he may seek to establish some kind of oversight on what people in high government positions can do or try to do.
It's entirely possible that Trump is not driving the DeepState agenda moves.
I'm sure that there are a lot of government hacks who really really want to "get" Assange.
Pretty some of those have siddled up next to Trump and whispered in his ear that "this is a good move". Pretty sure Trump knows he owes a lot to Wikileaks for stuff on Hillary. Dunno if he's got concerns about becoming Assange's next piece of work.
I simply believe it's healthy for society if we do have competent ways to get information on what the State actors have done, are doing, that is entirely out of their control.
National security is secondary imo. The people of the USA need to know what Putin knows, or what the Brits know, or what the Chinese know.... and if we know, we will be better able to make the right decisions as a people.