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On God and Religion

You call it a worst case, I call it the only absolute certainty -- god really might not be out there. Consequently everyone has a choice to base their meaning on a total uncertainty, or base their meaning on something actually tangible like their own life. In my way of thinking, basing meaning on things that are uncertain is inherently less valuable than basing meaning on things that are.

framing this as sort of an economic argument however, where a greater risk reaps a greater reward, that would make the riskier choice of basing your life on uncertainty be the potentially more rewarding choice




As an aside, the one thing that particularly bugs me about the god makes life meaningful angle are all the presumptions that go along with it. That god exists does not mean he loves us. Or that he has a plan for anything. He could be completely indifferent. Even evil....

it seems to me at least that AP uses God as a surrogate for mankind. A faith or belief in the continuation of mankind is what gives our lives the eternal aspect he seems to feel we are seeking, and that's what he calls "God" - that's my interpretation.

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You call it a worst case, I call it the only absolute certainty -- god really might not be out there. Consequently everyone has a choice to base their meaning on a total uncertainty, or base their meaning on something actually tangible like their own life. In my way of thinking, basing meaning on things that are uncertain is inherently less valuable than basing meaning on things that are.

I can address the 'comparison' angle, too. (As an aside, the one thing that particularly bugs me about the god makes life meaningful angle are all the presumptions that go along with it. That god exists does not mean he loves us. Or that he has a plan for anything. He could be completely indifferent. Even evil. He's a naturally logical construct we've created to fill in the enormous gaps of knowledge that come along with existence. He's a wish fulfiller. There's been gods of brussel sprouts. In nearly all incarnations, we've shaped him into something that "makes" life infinitely more meaningful by virtue of his ability to counter strife. I digress)

What I don't get is why you assume human 'needs,' or the human condition in the abstract as self evident. You seem to place a lot of weight on permanence in various forms. We don't want to be erased, we want to live on in the cosmos, we don't accept that life can really be arbitrary, we want reasons. I can look at a sand castle and not love it any less once the ocean washes it away. In fact, knowing that the ocean WILL wash it away might even make me love it more. You ascribe universal human traits that don't apply to me and aren't universal.

I'm not pretending to understand your whole outlook, but it looks like you've constructed a massive argument to justify your own personal anxieties about existence.

OK, so I came late to this party.

So here's where I got to myself. No, I've not "seen" God in any communicable way, I have no YouTube video of Him I can post here. And no commonly "scientific" means of proving the case. But I realized I'm the one who's got the limited power of persuasion/demonstration. And I treasure my own right to "see" things as I wish. So for what it's worth I'm actually quite willing to leave anyone else undisturbed in their own visions, well, as long as they keep far enough away from me I don't have to deal with it--- say to protect my life against some crazed zealot---. . . . . It's actually "certainty" that we ought to fear and try to avoid, because of the things we do when we lose our reticence and stride out boldly to make the world "right".

I also realize that human cognition, including religion and philosophy and science, all occurs inside little skulls with incredibly complex associations of inputs and autonomous creations. . . . . and that the Universe is mostly "out there", and is in fact something else than whatever we think. . . . .but if anyone says I have no reason to believe in God I just know they don't know what I know. Or don't want to "see" what "is".

I couldn't persuade a determined unbeliever that there is such a thing as an egg on my plate. It takes open eyes, some kind of agreement on what the subject "egg" might be and the located "plate" means. So fat chance saying "God" is in Heaven, and considering the case proved.

In practical terms, I and most other people will be here a few years, maybe a hundred or so in some cases, and it's true that we just don't have the capacity to demonstrate "God" persuasively. And it's just wonderful. Because of that we get to practice our own, in my view hopefull individual rather than collective sort of "Art of Living" and find our own way to "live well" or "make life better".

Nobody really gets to conclusively/permanently "freeze" our creativity or our cognition to conform to some statist line of purpose/belief. Not that there aren't a lot of us who for some reason seem to think that would serve nicely to manage mankind from an elitist perspective.

I interpret the situation as one that could be designed by a truely wise and benevolent "God" who has given up on being a Supreme Dictator and who has decided living things are loveable in all their varieties.

I sometimes wonder why folks who delve deeply into the current scientific fashion with an intent to make "evolution" an answer that will relieve themselves of appreciating religion, or for that matter, art or any of the other irrational beauties of the human mind, can spend years looking for intricate associations of facts that can show something of an evolutionary action in living things across time, who invariably and undeniably see how living systems exploit variability in many aspects of their natures in order to ensure that some will survive almost any likely challenge . . . . can be so deeply disturbed that human activity or cognition trends to broadly diversify away from any scheme for "managing the herd".

Our best chance for survival is in being more largely "different" than in doing things in some rational "best" uniform manner. Corporations thrive on uniform simple patterns. Humans thirve on complex diversity.
 
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You call it a worst case, I call it the only absolute certainty -- god really might not be out there. Consequently everyone has a choice to base their meaning on a total uncertainty, or base their meaning on something actually tangible like their own life. In my way of thinking, basing meaning on things that are uncertain is inherently less valuable than basing meaning on things that are.

I can address the 'comparison' angle, too. (As an aside, the one thing that particularly bugs me about the god makes life meaningful angle are all the presumptions that go along with it. That god exists does not mean he loves us. Or that he has a plan for anything. He could be completely indifferent. Even evil. He's a naturally logical construct we've created to fill in the enormous gaps of knowledge that come along with existence. He's a wish fulfiller. There's been gods of brussel sprouts. In nearly all incarnations, we've shaped him into something that "makes" life infinitely more meaningful by virtue of his ability to counter strife. I digress)

What I don't get is why you assume human 'needs,' or the human condition in the abstract as self evident. You seem to place a lot of weight on permanence in various forms. We don't want to be erased, we want to live on in the cosmos, we don't accept that life can really be arbitrary, we want reasons. I can look at a sand castle and not love it any less once the ocean washes it away. In fact, knowing that the ocean WILL wash it away might even make me love it more. You ascribe universal human traits that don't apply to me and aren't universal.

I'm not pretending to understand your whole outlook, but it looks like you've constructed a massive argument to justify your own personal anxieties about existence.
Clearly we're not going to agree anytime soon.

As to your last point, I can see why you would think I'm trying to "justify my own personal anxieties." Maybe I am. But as I said to One Brow, I'd like to think I'm intellectually honest enough with myself to not believe something just because it would make me feel better. I'm a pretty smart guy... I graduated magna *** laude from Marquette with 3.88 gpa and a triple-major, Phi Beta Kappa, all that garbage. I value truth more than comfort, otherwise I probably would have adopted my mother's religion. I don't believe in what I'm telling you because I find it more comforting... I believe it because to me it makes better sense of the universe.

I may have responses to some of your other comments later, but it's 3:23am here in Chicago, I should be getting to bed.
 
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OK, so I came late to this party.

So here's where I got to myself. No, I've not "seen" God in any communicable way, I have no YouTube video of Him I can post here. And no commonly "scientific" means of proving the case. But I realized I'm the one who's got the limited power of persuasion/demonstration. And I treasure my own right to "see" things as I wish. So for what it's worth I'm actually quite willing to leave anyone else undisturbed in their own visions, well, as long as they keep far enough away from me I don't have to deal with it--- say to protect my life against some crazed zealot---. . . . . It's actually "certainty" that we ought to fear and try to avoid, because of the things we do when we lose our reticence and stride out boldly to make the world "right".

I also realize that human cognition, including religion and philosophy and science, all occurs inside little skulls with incredibly complex associations of inputs and autonomous creations. . . . . and that the Universe is mostly "out there", and is in fact something else than whatever we think. . . . .but if anyone says I have no reason to believe in God I just know they don't know what I know. Or don't want to "see" what "is".

I couldn't persuade a determined unbeliever that there is such a thing as an egg on my plate. It takes open eyes, some kind of agreement on what the subject "egg" might be and the located "plate" means. So fat chance saying "God" is in Heaven, and considering the case proved.

In practical terms, I and most other people will be here a few years, maybe a hundred or so in some cases, and it's true that we just don't have the capacity to demonstrate "God" persuasively. And it's just wonderful. Because of that we get to practice our own, in my view hopefull individual rather than collective sort of "Art of Living" and find our own way to "live well" or "make life better".

Nobody really gets to conclusively/permanently "freeze" our creativity or our cognition to conform to some statist line of purpose/belief. Not that there aren't a lot of us who for some reason seem to think that would serve nicely to manage mankind from an elitist perspective.

I interpret the situation as one that could be designed by a truely wise and benevolent "God" who has given up on being a Supreme Dictator and who has decided living things are loveable in all their varieties.

I sometimes wonder why folks who delve deeply into the current scientific fashion with an intent to make "evolution" an answer that will relieve themselves of appreciating religion, or for that matter, art or any of the other irrational beauties of the human mind, can spend years looking for intricate associations of facts that can show something of an evolutionary action in living things across time, who invariably and undeniably see how living systems exploit variability in many aspects of their natures in order to ensure that some will survive almost any likely challenge . . . . can be so deeply disturbed that human activity or cognition trends to broadly diversify away from any scheme for "managing the herd".

Our best chance for survival is in being more largely "different" than in doing things in some rational "best" uniform manner. Corporations thrive on uniform simple patterns. Humans thirve on complex diversity.
Some interesting ideas, here.

Again, kinda late here in Chicago, but I thought I should at least mention that I would take issue with the statement I've put in bold, for a number of reasons. First, I don't think that the kind of omnipotent power that many Christians ascribe to God is even a coherent concept, for various reasons I've already outlined (although I realize you didn't explicitly ascribe to god this kind of power... but the phrase "Supreme Dictator" seemed to suggest it). I also don't find it a very likely idea that God would create a bunch of things and then decide later on to change his policy on his interaction with them. I suppose it's more coherent idea to me that God knows what he's about, so to speak, and wouldn't change his mind halfway through on so basic an issue.

Good thoughts in general, though. I certainly agree that people thrive on diversity, and that we are all trying to find ways to live better.
 
I see your points. A lot of fairly intelligent folks are unwilling to accept ideas of God that are either authoritarian or permissive because it just doesn't have any appeal, others reject concepts of God where God is in some sense changing or unstable. Ultimately, our ideas describing God are more like reflections of ourselves and our experiences in life in general. . . . we're not just ungrounded dreamers with no contact with experience.

I find many accounts from across a wide range of religious experience interesting. . . . could they all just be reflections of our own minds. . . . .

I don't think so, and essentially for the same reason you give, coherence from a wide range of observations and facts which otherwise don't make sense. The realities of things like love, beauty, and many other distinctly "human" things that are just things apart from faithless "Fact".

Funny things. Humans. Ya just gotta love'em. Do that, and you're well on your way to loving God. And loving is believing.
 
framing this as sort of an economic argument however, where a greater risk reaps a greater reward, that would make the riskier choice of basing your life on uncertainty be the potentially more rewarding choice






it seems to me at least that AP uses God as a surrogate for mankind. A faith or belief in the continuation of mankind is what gives our lives the eternal aspect he seems to feel we are seeking, and that's what he calls "God" - that's my interpretation.

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Your first point is Pascal's Wager, right? I've never understood it. What exactly is the risk of unbelief? Damnation? Purgatory? No harps or angels? Back of the bus to the Pearly Gates? We're all going to wind up at the same place in that scenario unless you believe in a god that plans on punishing me for not believing in him.

As to the second point, I don't think people live for the continuation of mankind. Nobody wants to die. Everyone wishes they understood all the mysteries of life. For some people, the hope/fear/frustration/anger leads them to hitch their wagon to whatever form of god suits them.

I don't see the point of that. Life is too meaningful as it is to look for external sources of meaning. I neither believe nor disbelieve in god. I just don't think god has any relevance to my life.
 
Clearly we're not going to agree anytime soon.

As to your last point, I can see why you would think I'm trying to "justify my own personal anxieties." Maybe I am. But as I said to One Brow, I'd like to think I'm intellectually honest enough with myself to not believe something just because it would make me feel better. I'm a pretty smart guy... I graduated magna *** laude from Marquette with 3.88 gpa and a triple-major, Phi Beta Kappa, all that garbage. I value truth more than comfort, otherwise I probably would have adopted my mother's religion. I don't believe in what I'm telling you because I find it more comforting... I believe it because to me it makes better sense of the universe.

I may have responses to some of your other comments later, but it's 3:23am here in Chicago, I should be getting to bed.

I think I'm coming off too strident and I apologize for that. Your points are well taken and I didn't mean anything I said as a personal attack. I just think a lot of god theorizing boils down to fear of death and meaninglessness. And I can't understand how life is any less meaningful if there isn't a wizard somewhere who knows everything.

To me, god is about as meaningful as UFO's or Bigfoot. Fun to think about, but ultimately useless to my existence.
 
Your first point is Pascal's Wager, right? I've never understood it. What exactly is the risk of unbelief? Damnation? Purgatory? No harps or angels? Back of the bus to the Pearly Gates? We're all going to wind up at the same place in that scenario unless you believe in a god that plans on punishing me for not believing in him.

As to the second point, I don't think people live for the continuation of mankind. Nobody wants to die. Everyone wishes they understood all the mysteries of life. For some people, the hope/fear/frustration/anger leads them to hitch their wagon to whatever form of god suits them.

I don't see the point of that. Life is too meaningful as it is to look for external sources of meaning. I neither believe nor disbelieve in god. I just don't think god has any relevance to my life.

I really don't know anything about Pascal's wager, the only thing I dimly remember that's connected with him is his "magic" triangle, and as far as I can tell, that didn't have anything to do with god. But maybe he thought there was some sort of divine providence in the way the numbers lined up?

My only thought was that the unknown generally is riskier than the known, and so uncertainty would be riskier than certainty. Then I was sort of applying a little banking system logic.

At any rate, as to your last comment, I'm pretty much in agreement. I would say more, but I'm too distracted at the moment thinking about Pascal's Triangle.
 
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The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, while having existed in secrecy for hundreds of years, only recently came into the mainstream when this letter was published in May 2005.

With millions, if not thousands, of devout worshippers, the Church of the FSM is widely considered a legitimate religion, even by its opponents – mostly fundamentalist Christians, who have accepted that our God has larger balls than theirs.
 
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