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SI:Conley the pick for breakout star of post all-star

Thee jazz fan said:
I just illustrated why that was, even look at the heat when James first arrived. Look what Conley’s done since being put back in the starting lineup. He’s only going to get better from here on out, and if you argue against that, you are obviously rooting against the jazz.
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What has he done since being back in the starting lineup? What is our record in those games? Individually stats do not directly correlate to being better as a team. Look at Booker in Phoenix. Great stats, terrible team. Until we see his increased production translated into wins then all we have to go on is what has happened so far, and the facts say we are better without him.

And I think you are rooting for Conley and against the jazz. I want to see the jazz win, even if that means we play Conley less. It sounds to me like you are happy with piling up the losses as long as it shows Conley being a borderline all-star again. Who's really rooting against the jazz?
 
Mongoose said:
I agree completely, (I think most people know that I never wanted Mike and I thought he'd be a mistake, but nevertheless he's here now), but just for the sake of argument what do people think about bringing DM off the bench? Seems like hes had some turnover issues. What data do we have of a Mike, Joe, Bogie, Royce, Rudy lineup? I wouldn't want to bring DM off the bench which is why I never would have gotten Mike to begin with, but DM is a mature guy, he's young, he's got the team first mentality, and I don't think it'd shatter him. He could basically take all the shots he wants with the second unit. I think the jazz are going to have to do to stagger DM and Mike, but if Don would prefer to play more minutes consecutively it might help him out.
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No... its Joe or Mike... DM is a pillar of our team now and in the future... don't dick around there. It would shatter him... he's still establishing his value (should get a max extension, but ink ain't dry yet). It would be a really terrible idea.

I think we need to find a way to help DM instead of pulling him in and out of the game... if he prefers less stints and longer ones. He plays with the second unit a lot.

Mike would be the one I'd bring off the bench... if it changes it is likely Joe... I don't see us changing unless a playoff matchup dictated it.
 
LogGrad98 said:
What has he done since being back in the starting lineup? What is our record in those games? Individually stats do not directly correlate to being better as a team. Look at Booker in Phoenix. Great stats, terrible team. Until we see his increased production translated into wins then all we have to go on is what has happened so far, and the facts say we are better without him.

And I think you are rooting for Conley and against the jazz. I want to see the jazz win, even if that means we play Conley less. It sounds to me like you are happy with piling up the losses as long as it shows Conley being a borderline all-star again. Who's really rooting against the jazz?
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He was a key contributor in the Houston game.
 
Two thoughts:

A) One of the reasons that (those who say) we can't just run with numbers is that (beyond the small-sample size issue) players are not simply components in a mechanical system. They do function that way to some significant degree, to be sure, but they also have the capacity for learning and adjustment (in addition to all the other human capacities, like recovering from injury, etc.). This means that they are not bound to forever function within the system the same way they have in the past.

B) The opponent of the Jazz is not fixed. Matchups are a real thing. Things that work well against most teams (or better on average) may not work as well against certain other teams. The "chemistry" of a team does not exist in a vacuum but (esp. in a playoff series) is context dependent. It seems perhaps the safer bet for a team might perhaps be to create as many possibilities for positive chemistry as possible rather than go for broke with one or two.

I think our arguments are where the boundaries of these issues lie. At what point do we have enough data to say that significant adjustment is no longer possible? Is it still possible for parts of the team and Conley to adapt better with each other? (I'm guessing the coaches think this process has a longer time frame than many of us do). And what kind of capacities need to be developed for possible playoff scenarios? (How do we maximize our potential against both the Lakers and the Rockets, for example?)
 
LogGrad98 said:
He did play off the bench. It did help the team. They moved him to the starting lineup anyway.
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I thought Conley's first few games off the bench were not great, and that starting really worked better. Then the newer rotation where he joins the bench unit more than Mitchell also seemed to work better. Where are my stats geeks at?
 
idiot said:
Two thoughts:

A) One of the reasons that (those who say) we can't just run with numbers is that (beyond the small-sample size issue) players are not simply components in a mechanical system. They do function that way to some significant degree, to be sure, but they also have the capacity for learning and adjustment (in addition to all the other human capacities, like recovering from injury, etc.). This means that they are not bound to forever function within the system the same way they have in the past.

B) The opponent of the Jazz is not fixed. Matchups are a real thing. Things that work well against most teams (or better on average) may not work as well against certain other teams. The "chemistry" of a team does not exist in a vacuum but (esp. in a playoff series) is context dependent. It seems perhaps the safer bet for a team might perhaps be to create as many possibilities for positive chemistry as possible rather than go for broke with one or two.

I think our arguments are where the boundaries of these issues lie. At what point do we have enough data to say that significant adjustment is no longer possible? Is it still possible for parts of the team and Conley to adapt better with each other? (I'm guessing the coaches think this process has a longer time frame than many of us do). And what kind of capacities need to be developed for possible playoff scenarios? (How do we maximize our potential against both the Lakers and the Rockets, for example?)
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Well said, even if you are an idiot.
 
LifeOnaPlate said:
The Conley scapegoating is real
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He's been good... its not necessarily what he is doing recently... its just that of the various iterations of the starting lineup... the one we are rolling with is by far the worst. Some of that is small sample... some is when the schedule was tougher. But its a huge huge contrast and it honestly makes sense when you think about it. Its not his individual offensive play... its more about what Royce brings to that group and the adjustments that are made to accommodate Mike.

DM now can't be hidden on the worst perimeter guy or isn't guarding the smallest guy on the floor. Joe is now guarding the toughest assignment and doesn't have the ball as much... Joe is much better in pick and roll with Rudy than Mike is... so Rudy is affected.

He's played well... the data is pretty damning though that adjustments should be made. He is good and will help us if used the right way. I'd give it a little more time to make sure we have a good enough sample size to make a determination.
 
Mike out against San Antonio tomorrow, so that he can play Saturday against Houston... so we can get another sample here.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Mike out against San Antonio tomorrow, so that he can play Saturday against Houston... so we can get another sample here.
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I'm predicting a win vs Spurs and a loss vs the rockets.
Call it "the Conley effect"

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