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The future of drop-big defense; and, necessary adjustments

The two teams that met in the Finals had traditional bigs at the 5, I hope the Jazz keep Gobert, win championships with him and put up his statue in front of the arena.
Bam and AD aren’t traditional. Ad is crazy skilled and Bam is really skilled... can’t shoot yet but might soon.

Rudy is quite valuable against AD... so he can definitely be part of the formula if you want to beat them.
 
Bam and AD aren’t traditional. Ad is crazy skilled and Bam is really skilled... can’t shoot yet but might soon.

Rudy is quite valuable against AD... so he can definitely be part of the formula if you want to beat them.

The Lakers starting center was Dwight Howard. AD played the 4. What skills do you feel Bam has that Rudy does not?
 
The Lakers starting center was Dwight Howard. AD played the 4. What skills do you feel Bam has that Rudy does not?
Dwight player center sometimes but AD shifting down is their best lineup. Bam can dribble and pass.
 
We can discuss all different defensive systems all day long but in the end it comes down to the fact that we need to add ad least two good defenders to the roster because otherwise whatever we try with our current team will be just visual.
 
We can discuss all different defensive systems all day long but in the end it comes down to the fact that we need to add ad least two good defenders to the roster because otherwise whatever we try with our current team will be just visual.
I agree with this to a point... The defense in the post season was atrocious and if you have the best defensive player in the league you should put up something better than atrocious.

If we want to be elite again then we need to add a couple defenders.
 
I agree with this to a point... The defense in the post season was atrocious and if you have the best defensive player in the league you should put up something better than atrocious.

If we want to be elite again then we need to add a couple defenders.
It seems you just don't "agree...to a point" but have the same take on this.

Yup, me need at least a couple of good/athletic/switchable defenders.
 
It seems you just don't "agree...to a point" but have the same take on this.
I agree with this to a point... The defense in the post season was atrocious and if you have the best defensive player in the league you should put up something better than atrocious.

If we want to be elite again then we need to add a couple defenders.

Yup, me need at least a couple of good/athletic/switchable defenders.
And it matters who closes games. Conley shouldn’t be.
 
It seems you just don't "agree...to a point" but have the same take on this.

Yup, me need at least a couple of good/athletic/switchable defenders.
Very close.. I think that schemes could have a decent impact even with the current personnel. All we needed to get past Denver was a slight uptick... long term we need more than just a slight uptick... we need better personnel and varying schemes.
 
And it matters who closes games. Conley shouldn’t be.
Wait, since when can we quote like this (a quote within a quote)? Is this something new?

Having two average/below average defenders in Bogie & Conley sucks. And DM is not a lockdown defender either (to be fair, can't ask much from him since he carries the offense)
 
The Lakers starting center was Dwight Howard. AD played the 4. What skills do you feel Bam has that Rudy does not?
Dwight averaged less than 12 mpg in the Finals. He played a total of 24 minutes in the last 3 games (1, 15, and 8).


Traditional center is close to gone in rhe NBA as a necessity. You either have elite guys at something or its just a platoon. Rudy is the last relevant center who just rebounds, plays d and sets screens


Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
I don’t want to write a tome here, so let me get to the initial assumptions right off the bat:

1. We are officially in the era of diminishing returns when it comes to the efficiency of drop-big defense of the PnR. It can be in your bag, but it cannot be the kind of every-play, everyday staple like it was this year for several teams.

2. This drop in efficiency is primarily because of adjustments being made by the league’s top 30+ guards, who are increasingly effective at off-the-dribble 3s. But it’s also because it’s just hard to defend a guard who’s given a predictable runway/funnel into the defense to either draw a foul or kick out to a shooter whose timing is set by the predictable rhythm of funnel-drive-kick.

3. The effectiveness of drop-big has been partially inflated by the success of the Bucks, and, to a degree, the Utah Jazz—both of whom have the best defenders in the world.

4. As currently constructed, the Utah Jazz’s roster is in a weak position to adjust to the changed landscape.

Now, let’s carry the argument forward:

(i) League-wide, there will be more switching, more coverage where the big is up near the level of the screen, and more zone coverage.

(ii) Whenever the big is up and there’s no switch, this will make the rim more vulnerable to attack. And so, in terms of adjusting to this reality whilst maintaining emphasis on protecting the rim, defenses will ask more from the defender in the weak-side corner, since he is in the best position to help at the rim.

(iii) Obvious corollary here is that this defender needs to be long enough to protect the rim. (And also swift enough to recover to his shooter).

(iv) Defenses will also have to be good at sequestering the PnR to the strong side. This requires good help from the weak-side defender who’s up in the gap near the free throw line.

Now let’s look at the Jazz’s roster:

(a) Rudy Gobert is definitely good enough to be involved in more switches and to play up higher in non-switching schemes.

(b) this past season, the defender in the weak-side corner was often 6’1” Mike Conley

(c) Royce is an good/excellent defender in these changing schemes. He can play either on the ball or up in the gap near the free throw line. Joe will share these same duties, so we can only pray that he hasn’t lost too much of a step to do so. If he can’t do this effectively in the starting lineup, then our overall versatility is hit pretty hard.

(d) Mitchell has a heavy offensive load, so he’s probably best in this gap near the free throw line where the workload is a little less. Obviously offenses can hunt for the matchups they want and usually have more than one PnR ball handler, so Mitchell (or anyone else in the gap) will be forced to play on-ball for a fair number of possessions per game. While we should endeavor to limit these possessions, we can also expect Mitchell to improve and be a good stopper there when necessary.

(e) Joe, Bojan, and Conley (and I could definitely keep listing players!) will all be extremely ineffective in the weak-side corner going forward. Morgan could be a good piece there. Maybe Brantley.

(f) Tony Bradley is cooked

(g) the Jazz need more defenders at multiple spots. They need more help on the ball. And they are extremely vulnerable in the weak-side corner. Christian Wood is the best available prospect for that weak side corner, and he can also play Rudy’s role. Denis Schroeder would be a plus-defender on the ball in our system. Shaq Harrison and Torrey Craig can help in multiple locations. If OPJ is gettable, then he’d be useful in that weak-side corner.

I’m gonna end here before this becomes even more tl;dr. There are obviously wrinkles I didn’t address, like when the offense empties the side of the floor where the PnR takes place, etc. Hopefully we can get to these details in this thread.

muah,
NAOS
I’d change certain emphases + adjust the nuances of some of the claims after watching this last season.... but the core of this post has aged well, imo.

Drop-big looks like it has a little more life as a regular-season workhorse. But it’s clearly getting exposed (AGAIN) in the playoffs.
 
I’d change certain emphases + adjust the nuances of some of the claims after watching this last season.... but the core of this post has aged well, imo.

Drop-big looks like it has a little more life as a regular-season workhorse. But it’s clearly getting exposed (AGAIN) in the playoffs.
I think it still works. You just have to adapt to the teams you are playing, and have a roster than can play small ball.

You also have to adjust your defense better to adapt to what the other teams is running. The Clippers did a great job of guarding the 3 pt line and rim, as they figured out we don't shoot anywhere else. They also doubled Mitchell as they knew they could recover. Not sure why they didn't adapt to it. They should have been prepared to exploit it with quick passes every time. Oh well.
 
I think it still works. You just have to adapt to the teams you are playing, and have a roster than can play small ball.

You also have to adjust your defense better to adapt to what the other teams is running. The Clippers did a great job of guarding the 3 pt line and rim, as they figured out we don't shoot anywhere else. They also doubled Mitchell as they knew they could recover. Not sure why they didn't adapt to it. They should have been prepared to exploit it with quick passes every time. Oh well.
I think sometimes these systems are too rigid. If you don't have players that can disrupt a bit on the perimeter the offense can get very comfortable. So I think you have to mix it up in order to cause slight hesitations. Guys will shoot better when they know where shots are coming from and don't have to think a ton to read the defense. I think we have to adjust the roster or adjust the system or a little of both.

Kinda like a hitter will hit a much higher percentage if they know a certain pitch is coming every time.
 
I think it still works. You just have to adapt to the teams you are playing, and have a roster than can play small ball.

You also have to adjust your defense better to adapt to what the other teams is running. The Clippers did a great job of guarding the 3 pt line and rim, as they figured out we don't shoot anywhere else. They also doubled Mitchell as they knew they could recover. Not sure why they didn't adapt to it. They should have been prepared to exploit it with quick passes every time. Oh well.
Like I said, you can have drop-big in your bag. You should, in fact.
 
I think sometimes these systems are too rigid. If you don't have players that can disrupt a bit on the perimeter the offense can get very comfortable. So I think you have to mix it up in order to cause slight hesitations. Guys will shoot better when they know where shots are coming from and don't have to think a ton to read the defense. I think we have to adjust the roster or adjust the system or a little of both.

Kinda like a hitter will hit a much higher percentage if they know a certain pitch is coming every time.
That is exactly right, and it applies on both ends of the court.

One thing I love about about the UCLA offense that Jerry ran, or Pop's Horn's offense (with a ton of wrinkles, that takes a long time to learn) is even if you anticipate and try to "cheat", another option opens up. If a defender relaxed for a second something opened up. And you can score effectively with just ok offensive players. Quin's "advantage" offense does not do that against playoff defense. At the same time, Rudy has to learn to punish small ball lineups. If he can't outrebound everyone and get a lot of dunks, he can't stay on the court. The matchup zone largely negated his screens. Quin also should have made an emphasis to keep Rudy involved. He tries harder when he is involved in the offense. Hell, let him take a couple jumpers if it means he is more involved on the other end.

Time and time again we saw players just standing in our passing lane to pick off passes, as the sets are so predictable. We need to have sets with more off-ball screens, back-cuts, etc. Almost everything is on ball, and we let the rest of the defenders "rest" a bit for the possession.

As much as I have harped on the offense, the lack of adjustments on the defensive end were even worse. Quin's strategy was to adapt to leave a player wide open and we got torched for almost 40.
 
It's interesting that 3 of 4 conference teams mainly played drop big and are continuing to do so.

Drop big is great if you have someone like Rudy or Capela that can step up and contest the mid-range or handle themselves when there is a switch. Rudy did a lot more late switching in the first 4 games against the Clips.

Not so much when it's Lopez who have slow feet and would get burnt if they stepped up. Bucks tried to mitigate the liability by having Giannis provide help from the nail and having good defenders in backcourt that can fight over screens.

What I like about drop big is that it's very flexible while not stretching the defensive shape. It requires defensive IQ, though.
 
TL;DR

We need long athletic switchy wing defenders.
Bringing this one back up since the FO seems to get confused when they have to think about a post with more substance.
 
It's interesting that 3 of 4 conference teams mainly played drop big and are continuing to do so.

Drop big is great if you have someone like Rudy or Capela that can step up and contest the mid-range or handle themselves when there is a switch. Rudy did a lot more late switching in the first 4 games against the Clips.

Not so much when it's Lopez who have slow feet and would get burnt if they stepped up. Bucks tried to mitigate the liability by having Giannis provide help from the nail and having good defenders in backcourt that can fight over screens.

What I like about drop big is that it's very flexible while not stretching the defensive shape. It requires defensive IQ, though.
Milwaukee would be in trouble with a switching team like the Clips.

It should be the main scheme but you also have to be able to counter or have guys that put pressure on the perimeter.
 
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