Trade deadline discussion

[LoPo]

No, not really. That offers no context at all. We can completely dismiss it unless you really think the Jazz are better off without an All-Star PG. If you think that, just say so.

You must have some reading comprehension too.

At no point at all the entire season have I proposed trading Mike Conley. Not once. Not one time since this regular season has tipped. And that was before he was named an All Star.

So why don't you shut it and watch the season play out? Hopefully your boy comes to play and actually helps us win a damn playoff series. Hell, we paid spent enough assets to get him here and pay him enough damn money.

 

[infection]

You are flat out wrong... sorry. You are explaining some dynamic situation where there were millions of unknowns... we knew what the cap was, we knew who we wanted to keep, we knew we needed a backup center, we knew exactly how much the MLE was and that using the full amount would mean we were over the tax by a very small amount. We knew that would start the repeater tax clock.

The only unknown I can think of is that maybe they were not sure they would need to re-sign Conley this offseason because he is playing well. Even still good responsible cap managers would have given themselves some ability or wiggle room... there were 3 opportunities to do so. If you fail to plan then you plan to fail.

Take the Favs situation... say they felt he was the only backup center they could ever want or need... but that they also needed to slip below the tax this year to avoid a potential $50M penalty or losing a key cog this offseason... He wants 3 years and $29M as the full MLE... could you just negotiate that number down $1m the first year and tack a fourth year on the deal that is 40% guaranteed and get it done... even if you gave him 4/36 and made the whole thing guaranteed you are giving up $6M to potentially save 10s of millions later or to prevent a future fire sale. If he was deeply offended at the negotiation and walks then guess what? You find another alternative! You just drafted a kid you apparently really love so stringing yourself out long term is likely not ideal.

Call it what you want but if these guys are ****ing financial ninjas like you are purporting then they should be able to manage a couple contract negotiations without setting ourselves up for a catastrophic financial event. If Ryan is so willing to spend why did we give up a real asset to dump Rayjon Tucker's $400k guarantee? If you end up in the tax by a small amount and make moves to shed dollars with assets and add dollars later on meaningless depth... well that doesn't strike me as nailing it. There is some inconsistencies here that even a casual dumb ****ing fan like me can see.

If you think we have managed the cap well then I would advise you to look back at Gordon's final season... we reserved cap space to extend Hill but then we couldn't come to terms and did nothing meaningful with that space. A completely wasted asset. If we are so on top of it don't we negotiate earlier with Hill and use the space if we think we are too far apart?

Doesn't mean DL sux or that our front office is dumz AF... it means whoever our cap guru is should be let go or given a strong talking to... if DL ignored that person then its on him. Not a fireable offense but I've seen CEOs fire smart CFOs over less.

There was no other way. Look, these guys have PhDs in basketball economics and management from Wharton. They get physics lessons from NASA. No small-time CPA shows up the big boys. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Elizah Huge]

You must have some reading comprehension too.

At no point at all the entire season have I proposed trading Mike Conley. Not once. Not one time since this regular season has tipped. And that was before he was named an All Star.

So why don't you shut it and watch the season play out? Hopefully your boy comes to play and actually helps us win a damn playoff series. Hell, we paid spent enough assets to get him here and pay him enough damn money.

Lol dude just give it up. You keep digging yourself a hole. Slowly becoming one of the worst posters on this site.

 

[LoPo]

Lol dude just give it up. You keep digging yourself a hole. Slowly becoming one of the worst posters on this site.

Should I trust you and your inability to read?

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[latin jazz]

Cool. You resorted to name calling. Again. You brilliant mind you. Said it a million times - a person can come up with a stat to support almost any viewpoint.

I want to win games. I want to win playoff series. I want to win a championship. You don't find it a bit bizarre that our team, since the Conley arrival (so this year and last), is the following?

25-8 without Conley
2-2 without Rudy
3-2 without Don

With Conley, we have a 62% win percentage
Without Conley, we have a 76% win percentage

I know the game is much more complicated than wins with/without somebody, but to completely dismiss it (like you are) is more idiotic than being concerned about it (like I have). It's got to be one of the most critical stats that is looked at.

Sorry Lopo. But are you making an argument that we are a better team without Conley?

 

[Elizah Huge]

Sorry Lopo. But are you making an argument that we are a better team without Conley?

Typical LoPo. He has a weird vendetta against Conley. He is just pissed he whiffed so hard on him.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There was no other way. Look, these guys have PhDs in basketball economics and management from Wharton. They get physics lessons from NASA. No small-time CPA shows up the big boys. That's just ridiculous.

I literally made my career/business messing with the big 4 and other national firms. So much so that one of the partners at the Big 4 went on and on about how much he liked me and how he really wished I had stayed with them... I literally never worked with them... just got into enough deals with their clients that they thought I did.

 

[LoPo]

Sorry Lopo. But are you making an argument that we are a better team without Conley?

No. HH and I were talking about what happens this summer if we underachieve in the playoffs and what do we do financially.

We both think our FO will try to get under the luxury to avoid the repeater area.

He thought our FO would re-sign Conley then trade some combo of JC, Bogey or Favors.

I brought up the interesting Conley W/L stats. I never said we let him walk, but I could see the FO using that and finances as a reason we let Conley walk.

And of course the morons come out saying I hate Conley and I want him gone. I was literally making conversation...

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[whatthe]

If you are the glory markets, I would discount anything they do to manage their salary. They have players conceding all the time to make accommodations and they are popular trade destination so they get easy trade capital every year. Now, how does the Jazz cap management compare to the rest of the league? I think it is an average performance, not elite but just average.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There was no other way. Look, these guys have PhDs in basketball economics and management from Wharton. They get physics lessons from NASA. No small-time CPA shows up the big boys. That's just ridiculous.

Also there are literally just a few options here...

1-the messed up on planning or some of the finances and ended up just in the luxury tax. New owner doesn't really know all the ins and outs of the repeater tax and didn't have a clear picture of the salary projections but is a fan and loved him some Favs so "**** yeah get that guy".
2-they didn't think Conley was going to need to be retained at a high price.
3-They think they can get off of Favs deal later when Udoka is ready.
4- They negotiated but couldn't get Favs/JC to drop a little bit and they didn't see anyway to make it work without Favs.
5- They think they can pivot away from one of JC or Bogey and limit the damage of the repeater tax.
6-they are willing to spend $100M+ in luxury tax because its just fun tickets (please ignore that we sent a second rounder to save a few pennies on Tucker).

All the new owner has known in basketball is success... we are the best team in the league record wise. What happens if/when there is disappointment in the playoffs... does that looming tax start to look like no big deal?

Not trying to be doom and gloom... I just think we should enjoy this team now... it won't be the same next year. There will be a little bit of a financial mess to clean up and maybe they do a good job... but we had a chance to make it a little easier and didn't.

 

[LoPo]

Typical LoPo. He has a weird vendetta against Conley. He is just pissed he whiffed so hard on him.

If we ever get to a point where I "whif" on Conley, I'll admit it. I have zero problem admitting I was wrong.

We spent so much on Conley in order to help take us to places Ricky Rubio couldn't. If Conley doesn't pull his weight to help us get to the 2nd round or further, who whiffed?

 

[Elizah Huge]

If we ever get to a point where I "whif" on Conley, I'll admit it. I have zero problem admitting I was wrong.

We spent so much on Conley in order to help take us to places Ricky Rubio couldn't. If Conley doesn't pull his weight to help us get to the 2nd round or further, who whiffed?

You’ve whiffed multiple times. You acted like he was a scrub and he’s an all-star. Wake up.

 

[LoPo]

You’ve whiffed multiple times. You acted like he was a scrub and he’s an all-star. Wake up.

When I whif, I'll admit it.

So far, Conley has played great this year. I'm excited by that. Overall, he will be judged, by me, on the playoffs.

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[firegirl]

So we have favors and draft picks, real different team scholar. DL is a moron is he your dad? Did he offer you a 2nd round pick to like him ?

Alright. So in your mind what would make a great season for us? Second round? WCF? What changes your opinion about DL?

You might be right. We may die a fast death come playoffs. Just curious where you’re at.


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[fishonjazz]

I think the clippers trade makes then worse.
I think lou is better than rondo and rondo is redundant to beverly.

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[Saint Cy of JFC]

You are flat out wrong... sorry. You are explaining some dynamic situation where there were millions of unknowns... we knew what the cap was, we knew who we wanted to keep, we knew we needed a backup center, we knew exactly how much the MLE was and that using the full amount would mean we were over the tax by a very small amount. We knew that would start the repeater tax clock.

The only unknown I can think of is that maybe they were not sure they would need to re-sign Conley this offseason because he is playing well. Even still good responsible cap managers would have given themselves some ability or wiggle room... there were 3 opportunities to do so. If you fail to plan then you plan to fail.

Take the Favs situation... say they felt he was the only backup center they could ever want or need... but that they also needed to slip below the tax this year to avoid a potential $50M penalty or losing a key cog this offseason... He wants 3 years and $29M as the full MLE... could you just negotiate that number down $1m the first year and tack a fourth year on the deal that is 40% guaranteed and get it done... even if you gave him 4/36 and made the whole thing guaranteed you are giving up $6M to potentially save 10s of millions later or to prevent a future fire sale. If he was deeply offended at the negotiation and walks then guess what? You find another alternative! You just drafted a kid you apparently really love so stringing yourself out long term is likely not ideal.

Call it what you want but if these guys are ****ing financial ninjas like you are purporting then they should be able to manage a couple contract negotiations without setting ourselves up for a catastrophic financial event. If Ryan is so willing to spend why did we give up a real asset to dump Rayjon Tucker's $400k guarantee? If you end up in the tax by a small amount and make moves to shed dollars with assets and add dollars later on meaningless depth... well that doesn't strike me as nailing it. There is some inconsistencies here that even a casual dumb ****ing fan like me can see.

If you think we have managed the cap well then I would advise you to look back at Gordon's final season... we reserved cap space to extend Hill but then we couldn't come to terms and did nothing meaningful with that space. A completely wasted asset. If we are so on top of it don't we negotiate earlier with Hill and use the space if we think we are too far apart?

Doesn't mean DL sux or that our front office is dumz AF... it means whoever our cap guru is should be let go or given a strong talking to... if DL ignored that person then its on him. Not a fireable offense but I've seen CEOs fire smart CFOs over less.

He's a basketball GM dude, not a CFO. No one is going to care all that much about this stuff if they get a ring. He went for the present. I'm sure he would have liked to avoid the tax, but there were some factors that changed the cap since the Conley trade happened and you cant penny pinch too much.

Y'all have this fantasy in your head that DL can just hardball everyone into submission to his master plan. Danny Ainge has tried that ish and he had an asset treasure chest while being in a desirable market. Maybe not a too shelf market like a LA/Miami/NYK, but the next best tier. Look where that **** has gotten him.

 

[infection]

He's a basketball GM dude, not a CFO. No one is going to care all that much about this stuff if they get a ring. He went for the present. I'm sure he would have liked to avoid the tax, but there were some factors that changed the cap since the Conley trade happened and you cant penny pinch too much.

Y'all have this fantasy in your head that DL can just hardball everyone into submission to his master plan. Danny Ainge has tried that ish and he had an asset treasure chest while being in a desirable market. Maybe not a too shelf market like a LA/Miami/NYK, but the next best tier. Look where that **** has gotten him.

All of the examples HH gave weren’t hard balling people into submission. They were all fairly reasonable, and some were even still win-win like offering Favors a fourth year that had a guarantee of whatever was lost on the first year. I’d be curious which scenarios he presented that you’d consider hardball.

 

[416Klawzz]

Alright. So in your mind what would make a great season for us? Second round? WCF? What changes your opinion about DL?

You might be right. We may die a fast death come playoffs. Just curious where you’re at.


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I don't like him, I guess I am spoiled living in Toronto they have Masai, but the Raptors suck now. So I'm neutral.

 

[NAOS]

He's a basketball GM dude, not a CFO. No one is going to care all that much about this stuff if they get a ring. He went for the present. I'm sure he would have liked to avoid the tax, but there were some factors that changed the cap since the Conley trade happened and you cant penny pinch too much.

Y'all have this fantasy in your head that DL can just hardball everyone into submission to his master plan. Danny Ainge has tried that ish and he had an asset treasure chest while being in a desirable market. Maybe not a too shelf market like a LA/Miami/NYK, but the next best tier. Look where that **** has gotten him.

Lol. What a slander of hh’s points.

 

[DasJazz]

So if we strike out on OPJ after his buyout, why not go with Jeff Teague? He's able to be aggressive and help on the perimeter.