Coronavirus

[Deleted member 365]

Do store managers ever work anymore? Sheesh. You can go pages and pages seeing nothing but OB arguing with one (ignored) poster on here.

 

[Deleted member 365]

I don't know. In Germany my wife's chronic hip pain was getting worse. We called our family doctor, basically a PA with higher credentials which is the norm, as they can handle 90% of what ails you. She said, come on in. An hour later my wife was taking to her. She made 2 phone calls, one for an orthopedic specialist, 1 for an MRI. The specialist appointment was 3 days later, the MRI was the next Tuesday (by contrast I'm now in my 6th month waiting for an MRI on my neck, COVID or not that's just ********). So she sees these doctors, gets her MRI, and they diagnose her with bursitis caused by underlying hip dysplasia. They start treatment and within a month she can walk again without a hitch and sleeps through the night. It's been years since she slept through the night. So total time from first visit to physical therapy was about a month. Including MRI, follow up CT to confirm the dysplasia, and visits with 2 specialists, also to confirm the dysplasia. Total cost? $200 euros for various co-pays, and 15 euro co-pays for each PT visit.

Fast forward a year, we are back in America. The bursitis is flaring up. We call to get an appointment. 3 months out for our primary care physician. So we go to that appointment as it is required by our insurance at the time. He listens to her, we relay everything that happened in Germany. When we mentioned German doctors he rolled his eyes. Yeah, hah hah, 3rd world countries, amirite? Anyway he checks her mobility then says "you're fat. Lose weight." That's what every American doctor told her for years, even when she was barely 140 pounds, which at 5'8" and 40 years old and bring fairly athletic was a load of crap. So we say what about the dysplasia. He rolls his eyes, says it hardly ever happens. Sends us out grudgingly with a script for 800 mg ibuprofen and some physical therapy. We change doctors. Better bedside manner, basically same visit. Go to a third doctor, because the PT is basically useless. They do hot compress and massage, but nothing to treat the dysplasia so it does basically nothing. The underlying cause of the bursitis is not being treated. Finally we get to a specialist. He says...wait for it...lose weight. Not to mention in the meantime in an this she has lost 30 pounds with no improvement. He also rolls his eyes at "German doctors". Finally he orders tests. CT scan makes him order an MRI. He confers with another doctor. Hey, this might be hip dysplasia! What do you know? Orders different PT. Things start to improve.

And it only took 18 months and only cost me $6500. And that was on top of my premiums. Not counting physical therapy and medication. So even accounting for what I paid out of my check in Germany, since the premium is higher of course, we still paid more than $3000 more for the same treatment to finally get to the same conclusion.

No one can ever convince me that single player healthcare cannot be done effectively. That's corporate blinders talking. And apocryphal ********.

In taking to our German friends, our experience was pretty much the norm. No one complained about long waits. No one complained about cost, other than disagreeing about how the government spent the money, like everyone does. But they were by and large very happy with their healthcare.

Unfortunately neither Germany nor America keep national statistics on wait times so there is virtually no way to quantify it.

But I live in California now. Good luck getting in to see your doctor sooner than 6 months. And that was before COVID. And good luck ever getting into a specialist. I waited a year to get to see an orthopedic specialist. Then I got laid off, had to cancel, got new ******** insurance, and started the wait all over again. Yay! The lie that Americans don't wait is such ********. It's probably more a regional matter, but still.

Also my son is working a temp job and is too old to be covered under my insurance, so he just goes to the ER for whatever, eats the hit to his credit, and guess what? We all get to pay for him and every other person that does the same thing too! In higher costs across the board. Know what else we pay more for than any other country? Literally everything! We have the highest prescription costs (to the individual), highest hospital costs, we pay double the administrative costs of any other developed nation, if not triple. And for paying all that still a full 1/3 are either not insured or underinsured. But they still have health problems, so who pays when they default on medical bills? That's right, ALL OF US! ****ing brilliant.

So sign me up for universal health care. It is way past time we started treating medicine like a utility and not a luxury. America is so far behind the rest of the developed world it's just embarrassing.

This is a great post.

 

[JazzyFresh]

This is a great post.

Lol typical Alt-Fish response. See Safetydan(won't @ya) he's completely incapable of any intelligent response. Hell I'll make it 3 weeks

Anyways

So reading about how Biden is robbing Florida and it's residents from the monoclonal antibodies all because of DeSantis. A possible miracle that saving lives and Biden is going to make it much harder to get but also limit them.

 

[JazzyFresh]

We literally need more documentation to get into a restaurant than into the country.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

You quite clearly don't have a clue--e.g., dual citizenship alone doesn't qualify you for healthcare.

Maybe stick to topics you know something about.


Sent from my GM1900 using Tapatalk

I do understand that, but my dual citizenship makes it fairly easy. I even confirmed I can keep dual citizenship as that would have been a deal breaker if we decided to do it (mainly considered it as part of a move to live in AB in the spring and summer. Having family and my own cabin on our property in Alberta and living by the border would make it easy to spend 183 days living there. Didn't realize I needed to spell out the whole process on a message board, especially because that wasn't the main point of my post.

 

[LogGrad98]

Yeah, I didn't bring Germany into the equation. Doctors get paid fairly well in Germany, with excellent perks, but the taxes are crazy! Our German friends that are both physicians, start paying 42% in tax after they hit less that $50k in income (they also get crazy leave time for having kids, and our male friend is a government doctor, and his time off and benefits are equally insane). That would have to be the trade-off. Much higher taxes on the middle class and above to cover the costs.

I used Canada as they are fairly close to us taxwise, so we can see the correlation of what would likely happen.

You used Canada as an example to fault all universal health systems. Fact is in almost every measure we are anywhere from 15th to 21st in terms of our healthcare system compared to other developed nations. We are solidly in 1st in one measure: cost, especially to the individual. Availability, as in how many people are covered, we are dead last. Wait times are very difficult to quantify, but even by this measure the WHO put out a report a few years back that has us below middle of the pack, like 15th I believe it was. Patient to doctor ratio we are something like 18th (a lower ratio being better - 18th place means doctors have less time to spend with patients). And worse, in terms of outcomes, like mortality rates, life expectancy, infant mortality rates, we are anywhere from last to within a few spots of last. It is no joke, our system of medicine in this country is broken and is costing lives. Everyone wants you skim over that fact and good straight to inconvenience and money. More people, per capita, die earlier in our system than most any other developed nation on the planet, including Canada. It might seem minor, but only if you believe corporate profits are more important than human life. And yes it really is that simple. We have commoditized healthcare, and made it a luxury good. People that for whatever reason have no health insurance are very often driven to bankruptcy because they have no choice if something comes up. I had a friend who was one of those guys vocal about "I shouldn't pay for everybody's healthcare if I'm healthy" and being self-employed, young, and healthy he carried the minimum he could. Until his car accident. Fell asleep on a long drive. Months in the hospital. Nearly destroyed him financially. Ended up in bankruptcy. But many others are in worse situations where they have to choose between paying bills or buying food and seeking necessary medical care.

As far as your German friends and their tax rate they are inflating the number for sure. I made 140k euros while I lived there and my tax rate was right around 35%, however that includes the medical premium.

Here is a fun exercise. Take everything you spent on medical care in the last full year, you know, pre-covid, so it isn't jacked up by a wonky economy. That means everything, premiums, deductibles, prescriptions, the works. Now subtract about 5% to account for the fact that in Germany you do pay copays for a lot of stuff out of pocket. Like for 3 nights in a specialty hospital for my son we played a 10 euro copay per night. Now, take that number and add it to your taxes paid. How much does your tax rate go up? See, ALL of that is part of the tax rate in Germany. It is income driven, on a sliding scale.

We did exactly this exercise and compared the year before we went to Germany to the year we were there. Overall we paid almost double on healthcare in the US, INCLUDING our higher taxes in Germany due to the healthcare portion.

Almost all of these arguments are borne our by real-world research and reports, too. People try to make it sound like everyone in countries like Germany just want out so their taxes come down and they don't have to wait 87 months to see a doctor and that's all a load of ********. My German friends, including 3 physicians and a dentist, and a guy from the US who went there to get his medically degree as tuition was cheaper and stayed there because he likes the system far better than in the US, all were amazed how terrible it is here in the US by comparison, including the tax rate. Germans complain about it, like everyone does everywhere, but they also recognize that everyone benefits through increased productivity and fewer health concerns. Same reason every German company gives, and often enforces, 4 weeks of vacation every year. They recognize they get that back with happier and healthier employees.

In this regard, America is broken, by developed nation standards. Now if you want to complete with like Iran, well then...we are behind them in infant mortality. So maybe it's not as great as you think.

 

[LogGrad98]

See my edit to the above post that I was likely making as you made your post. Agree something has to change, but facts are consistent. CDN wait times are double of ours. As said above, I'm all for limiting costs for pharma, medical equipment, etc. to the average of what other 1st world countries pay (or a similar metric). As another poster said in the past on here somewhere, we shouldn't subsidize the world's medical costs by paying "full price" for what the rest of the world limits. It would force these companies to demand more across the board instead of the U.S. covering the profits for these companies. Seems to be an "easy" first step.

We deal with similar stuff with my daughter who has CP, so I can relate. I'm just skeptical that our government would actually do a good job and lower costs. Every time they put something in to be a benefit or lower costs, costs go up!

Where are you getting wait times? Almost every actual report on wait times excludes the US because we have no national standard nor mandate. These reports exclude Germany too, for the same reason. Can't compare apples to apples. I would doubt very much that it is that much worse on the whole.

 

[lauriandres]

Yes, those professionals probably are crazy, and are a danger to their patients.

How is a unvaccinated medical expert dangerous to the patient? Should i refuse an urgent surgery if the only option is unvaccinated medical staff? Or any other life threating situation (accident in sea or river or mountain)? Or really any situation in life (help in repairworks of house etc etc) My wife got a lot of medical help in summer 2020 where the COVID was widespread and no vaccine available. IMHO it would be kind of silly should i refuse the help and die only because the helping person is not vaccinated.
I am fully vaccinated (because wife told already to my doctor in october 2020 when the first hints of Pfizer vaccine were announced that when possible to vaccinate, then we are ready, just call). But getting freaked out when somebody is not vaccinated is IMHO a nonsense.

 

[One Brow]

How is a unvaccinated medical expert dangerous to the patient? Should i refuse an urgent surgery if the only option is unvaccinated medical staff?

What a horrible argument. If the surgery is urgent the risks of delaying it or skipping it are probably larger than the risk of getting a disease from your practitioner. It's still irresponsible for your practitioner to increase your risk in that fashion.

My wife got a lot of medical help in summer 2020 where the COVID was widespread and no vaccine available.

In the US in 2021, the vaccine is widely available, so this is not an issue today.

But getting freaked out when somebody is not vaccinated is IMHO a nonsense.

Who's freaked out?

 

[TheGoldStandard]

Where are you getting wait times? Almost every actual report on wait times excludes the US because we have no national standard nor mandate. These reports exclude Germany too, for the same reason. Can't compare apples to apples. I would doubt very much that it is that much worse on the whole.

See links referenced in prior post.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

You used Canada as an example to fault all universal health systems. Fact is in almost every measure we are anywhere from 15th to 21st in terms of our healthcare system compared to other developed nations. We are solidly in 1st in one measure: cost, especially to the individual. Availability, as in how many people are covered, we are dead last. Wait times are very difficult to quantify, but even by this measure the WHO put out a report a few years back that has us below middle of the pack, like 15th I believe it was. Patient to doctor ratio we are something like 18th (a lower ratio being better - 18th place means doctors have less time to spend with patients). And worse, in terms of outcomes, like mortality rates, life expectancy, infant mortality rates, we are anywhere from last to within a few spots of last. It is no joke, our system of medicine in this country is broken and is costing lives. Everyone wants you skim over that fact and good straight to inconvenience and money. More people, per capita, die earlier in our system than most any other developed nation on the planet, including Canada. It might seem minor, but only if you believe corporate profits are more important than human life. And yes it really is that simple. We have commoditized healthcare, and made it a luxury good. People that for whatever reason have no health insurance are very often driven to bankruptcy because they have no choice if something comes up. I had a friend who was one of those guys vocal about "I shouldn't pay for everybody's healthcare if I'm healthy" and being self-employed, young, and healthy he carried the minimum he could. Until his car accident. Fell asleep on a long drive. Months in the hospital. Nearly destroyed him financially. Ended up in bankruptcy. But many others are in worse situations where they have to choose between paying bills or buying food and seeking necessary medical care.

As far as your German friends and their tax rate they are inflating the number for sure. I made 140k euros while I lived there and my tax rate was right around 35%, however that includes the medical premium.

Here is a fun exercise. Take everything you spent on medical care in the last full year, you know, pre-covid, so it isn't jacked up by a wonky economy. That means everything, premiums, deductibles, prescriptions, the works. Now subtract about 5% to account for the fact that in Germany you do pay copays for a lot of stuff out of pocket. Like for 3 nights in a specialty hospital for my son we played a 10 euro copay per night. Now, take that number and add it to your taxes paid. How much does your tax rate go up? See, ALL of that is part of the tax rate in Germany. It is income driven, on a sliding scale.

We did exactly this exercise and compared the year before we went to Germany to the year we were there. Overall we paid almost double on healthcare in the US, INCLUDING our higher taxes in Germany due to the healthcare portion.

Almost all of these arguments are borne our by real-world research and reports, too. People try to make it sound like everyone in countries like Germany just want out so their taxes come down and they don't have to wait 87 months to see a doctor and that's all a load of ********. My German friends, including 3 physicians and a dentist, and a guy from the US who went there to get his medically degree as tuition was cheaper and stayed there because he likes the system far better than in the US, all were amazed how terrible it is here in the US by comparison, including the tax rate. Germans complain about it, like everyone does everywhere, but they also recognize that everyone benefits through increased productivity and fewer health concerns. Same reason every German company gives, and often enforces, 4 weeks of vacation every year. They recognize they get that back with happier and healthier employees.

In this regard, America is broken, by developed nation standards. Now if you want to complete with like Iran, well then...we are behind them in infant mortality. So maybe it's not as great as you think.

I don't disagree, and a frustration with Obamacare essentially did nothing to control costs, just try to cover more under insurance, which was done poorly.

Although with hospital provided insurance, even hitting our out of pocket max, my cost is still very low, which I am thankful for. Our hospital, a catholic based nonprofit, also sees everyone, and does its best not to charge those that cannot pay. In the winter a number of beds are filled with "sick" homeless. Great to have such a great organization around.

A focus on cost caps for equipment, supplies and pharma would go a long way to put us inline with other 1st world countries would go a long way to control costs. As said above, we are down the list in population, but #1 as a country in providing revenue to pharma and medical equipment companies. Whether out of pocket directly, higher premiums, or taxes frim medicare/caid, this needs to stop!

And as I said above, the U.S., even with high pay, is facing a shortage of doctors (and other medical providers) that is getting even worse. It is becoming a problem in hospitals, as professionals leave to less stressful jobs, which Covid has amplified. And again as stated above, we need to be careful before jumping into single payer without taking into account how that may effect our current doctor shortage and even more, which isn't talked about, is the number of quality physicians. You mention deaths from out broken cost system. Many more occur every day due to incompetent medical providers to a shocking degree.

Perhaps that includes covering tuition or other incentives, which is a different discussion with its own potential pitfalls.

I'm not against single payer, just very skeptical that our Congress will ever put in an effective system.

 

[LogGrad98]

See my edit to the above post that I was likely making as you made your post. Agree something has to change, but facts are consistent. CDN wait times are double of ours. As said above, I'm all for limiting costs for pharma, medical equipment, etc. to the average of what other 1st world countries pay (or a similar metric). As another poster said in the past on here somewhere, we shouldn't subsidize the world's medical costs by paying "full price" for what the rest of the world limits. It would force these companies to demand more across the board instead of the U.S. covering the profits for these companies. Seems to be an "easy" first step.

We deal with similar stuff with my daughter who has CP, so I can relate. I'm just skeptical that our government would actually do a good job and lower costs. Every time they put something in to be a benefit or lower costs, costs go up!

Fully agree here. Our government doesn't know how to break out of the trap they've built themselves when it comes to healthcare. They are in a giant Chinese finger puzzle. And it's because we are so enamored with the "free market economy" **** and so so deep in big corporate pockets. Two things need to happen before we even have a chance at real change: we need to eliminate or greatly constrain professional lobbies, and we need to make our lawmaker's finances completely transparent.

Lobbyists wield far too much power in our government. This needs to be curtailed. Look at how strong the tobacco lobby was for a century. And look at the massive massive public outcry it took to break the stranglehold. Oil has the same lobbying power. We subsidize their profits! Not their expenses, that's fully covered as their profits are obscene. No the subsidies our government gives to oil companies go straight to the bottom line. This is patently ridiculous. Yeah this is not entirely driven by lobbying, but it's a big part of the legislative problem here.

And making lawmaker's full financial dealings fully transparent and public would make it much harder for under-the-table deals and what amounts to straight fraud. Like congressman taking their families on vacation on the public dime. Or taking large cash and asset considerations from corporate special-interest groups.

Until we break through this, nothing will change. And even then, they will find a way to bribe to support their interests, because let's face it, that's what this all is. Call it campaign contributions, or perks, or sweetheart deals, it's all a form of bribery and should be straight up illegal.