Coronavirus

[Archie Moses]

I'm conflicted on this issue because I agree that people shouldn't be forced to get a vaccine. I'm just frustrated because the number of people making the wrong choice on this is so large. That puts all of us at greater risk. This isn't just a decision they are making for themselves, it is a decision that can mean that the virus mutates a few more times and potentially overcomes the vaccine and/or becomes much more deadly.

That's exactly how I feel.

 

[fishonjazz]

That's exactly how I feel.

Its kind of like how i was pissed (this is true) when the seatbelt law came out. I thought it was bull crap that I was forced to wear a seatbelt in a car that I bought and paid for. I didn't like wearing my seatbelt. I was a dumbass. Now im fine with it.
Probably the same way people originally reacted to vaccine mandates decades ago and then years later most people who opposed those mandates realized how many lives were being saved and how much sickness was being prevented and then they felt like dumbasses too I bet.

The question is this: Should we just allow the dumbasses to continue to be dumbasses even if it causes lots of sickness and death or should we force them to do the smart thing for the greater good of everyone including their dumbass selves?
Im glad that with the seatbelt thing that we didn't allow my dumbass to continue being a dumbass and instead the smart thing was forced upon me.

 

[Gameface]

What's crazy to me is how mysterious people act like vaccines are. Vaccines are very short lived in your body. It is NOT the vaccine that stays in your system and fights viruses. The vaccine just looks like the virus to your immune system and at that point it is your immune system that does all the work. By seeing an example of a virus your immune system develops the ability to quickly produce antibodies that target that specific virus. So if you're in the "I have a really strong immune system" then fantastic, it will learn from the vaccine extra good and be extra ready to fight any potential infection. Having a strong immune system isn't a reason to not get vaccinated. In fact, people on immune system blockers, like people who have had an organ transplant, etc., do not gain immunity from the vaccine because their immune system is being suppressed.

 

[Gameface]

Oh and reverse conspiracy theory time.

I've heard people claiming that the vaccine is some secret plot to actually control people, or track them, or make them infertile.

The problem with that if we follow the logic of the conspiracy theorist is that the people most likely to get the vaccine are already the most compliant people who will do what the government tells them to do. It's the conspiracy theorists out there exposing the government's lies that the government needs to worry about, right? And those are the people too smart to fall for getting the vaccine.

So if I'm the evil government I'm not going to use the vaccine to harm my most faithful followers. I'm going to give them a vaccine against a bioweapon that I will eventually use to wipe out all the non-compliant troublemakers.

Boom! I just blew your freaking minds, right?

 

[fishonjazz]

Oh and reverse conspiracy theory time.

I've heard people claiming that the vaccine is some secret plot to actually control people, or track them, or make them infertile.

The problem with that if we follow the logic of the conspiracy theorist is that the people most likely to get the vaccine are already the most compliant people who will do what the government tells them to do. It's the conspiracy theorists out there exposing the government's lies that the government needs to worry about, right? And those are the people too smart to fall for getting the vaccine.

So if I'm the evil government I'm not going to use the vaccine to harm my most faithful followers. I'm going to give them a vaccine against a bioweapon that I will eventually use to wipe out all the non-compliant troublemakers.

Boom! I just blew your freaking minds, right?

I mean if I wanted to put something in your body to control or track you or make you infertile then I would probably put that thing someplace that you dont already expect right? Why would these hypothetical bad guys place their "weapon" in the location where people already think it is. Doesn't make any sense.

 

[fishonjazz]

What's crazy to me is how mysterious people act like vaccines are. Vaccines are very short lived in your body. It is NOT the vaccine that stays in your system and fights viruses. The vaccine just looks like the virus to your immune system and at that point it is your immune system that does all the work. By seeing an example of a virus your immune system develops the ability to quickly produce antibodies that target that specific virus. So if you're in the "I have a really strong immune system" then fantastic, it will learn from the vaccine extra good and be extra ready to fight any potential infection. Having a strong immune system isn't a reason to not get vaccinated. In fact, people on immune system blockers, like people who have had an organ transplant, etc., do not gain immunity from the vaccine because their immune system is being suppressed.

I think if it like this. Our immune systems are amazing and awesome armies. They can almost always kick *** in their battles. But sometimes something comes along that can defeat our armies occasionally. But our amazing spies (scientists) were actually able to get the exact war plans (vaccines) from our enemies (viruses). Why would you not give your army the plans of your enemy to make battles easier and more likely to succeed?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

What's crazy to me is how mysterious people act like vaccines are.

I think you are over-simplifying vaccines. I understand the high level theory of what you are saying, but there is more to it. The example of myocarditis is a perfect example. There is an obvious bias between male and female. Why? Why does the exact same mRNA vaccine cause inflammation at 6 times the rate in hearts of young men as compared to young women? There isn't 6 times the immune response, 6 times the number of antibodies. There are some theories as to what is going on but they are highly speculative. There is a lot we don't know, or in your words "mysterious". We shouldn't act like we have all the answers because we don't and I don't see it as super simple in the way you seem to be presenting it.

 

[JazzGal]

Got my booster yesterday. No side effects. My arm isn't even sore.

Wonder when the genetic mutations begin? Would have been handy for Halloween

Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Gameface]

I think you are over-simplifying vaccines. I understand the high level theory of what you are saying, but there is more to it. The example of myocarditis is a perfect example. There is an obvious bias between male and female. Why? Why does the exact same mRNA vaccine cause inflammation at 6 times the rate in hearts of young men as compared to young women? There isn't 6 times the immune response, 6 times the number of antibodies. There are some theories as to what is going on but they are highly speculative. There is a lot we don't know, or in your words "mysterious". We shouldn't act like we have all the answers because we don't and I don't see it as super simple in the way you seem to be presenting it.

mRNA vaccines are new and I'm sure there are going to be things we will learn about them. Fortunately there is a more traditional vaccine for COVID.

Yeah I know I'm over-simplifying how vaccines work. But people do seem to think of them as more serious and more dangerous than most other kinds of medicine and they aren't. You take very few doses, the stuff that gets injected gets metabolized pretty quickly and then they are gone. Not to say there can't be any impact after the dose has been metabolized, but the vaccine itself isn't just in your body for years to come.

 

[LogGrad98]

Those who drink, smoke, and do recreational drugs don't typically force their kids to smoke or stuff recreational drugs down their kid's throats. In fact we have laws against it.

Handlogten's Heros has said getting his kids vaccinated is reasonable but wants to wait for 12 months or so for more data to come in first. Fishonjazz is talking about his young daughter. Douchebag K made clear he's talking about 5-11 year old kids in the snip you quoted. My wife is a scientist in the field of biology, is fully vaccinated as am I, and I've been extremely pro-vaccine on this board but there is no way our kid will be getting the Pfizer vaccine anytime soon because we understand math.

I want to take a moment to make sure I understand your comment. Are you calling parents expressing concerns "****ing dumb" because they have a double standard? Or did you take Douchebag K's comment about 5-11 year old kids, see that it wasn't a full-throated endorsement and use that as an excuse to generally attack antivaxxers even though his comment, nor Handlogten's Heros' comments, nor One Brow's comments, nor Fishonjazz's comments were about being antivaxxers?

Actually most smokers expose their children to it with regularity. The child has no choice. Ever ride in a car with a smoker?

 

[Gameface]

Actually most smokers expose their children to it with regularity. The child has no choice. Ever ride in a car with a smoker?

And the children of drinkers are FAR more likely to consume alcohol while underage.

With smokers it isn't just the second hand smoke, well I mean it is the second hand smoke. Their kids, if exposed to enough second hand smoke, might be addicted to nicotine before they've ever smoked a single cigarette. Very good friend of mine from when I was 2 years old (my sister's best friend growing up and a very good friend of my wife since 7th grade) had two parents who both smoked about 3 packs a day, in the house, in the car, everywhere. She's been a lifelong smoker herself after basically becoming addicted before she had any control over the situation.

 

[Ron Mexico]

And the children of drinkers are FAR more likely to consume alcohol while underage.

With smokers it isn't just the second hand smoke, well I mean it is the second hand smoke. Their kids, if exposed to enough second hand smoke, might be addicted to nicotine before they've ever smoked a single cigarette. Very good friend of mine from when I was 2 years old (my sister's best friend growing up and a very good friend of my wife since 7th grade) had two parents who both smoked about 3 packs a day, in the house, in the car, everywhere. She's been a lifelong smoker herself after basically becoming addicted before she had any control over the situation.

It's even more than that. I had cigarette withdrawals when I was a teenager from hanging out at my friend's house. His parents never smoked around him or his friends but they smoked inside the upstairs bathroom. A few months after I moved away I craved cigarettes really bad despite never smoking one in my life at the time. I had all the classic withdrawal symptoms.

 

[The Thriller]

I don’t get why forced vaccination is a big deal? You’ve already been through this no problem. You had to be vaccinated in order to enter the K-12 public education system. What’s the big deal with mandatory Covid vaccination? Do we want this thing to continue to depress our economy, overrun our ICUs, and hurt/kill people? And if we can blow off mandatory Covid vaccines over fweelings/out of control hyper individualism, why not blow off mandatory vaccines for polio, measles, and rubella? Should I be free to blow off wearing a seat belt, driving while under the influence, and running red lights because I feel like these laws violate my juvenile libertarian ideology and concepts of muh freedom? Do we really want to plunge our society into dark times over this? Seems stupid.

People are just too damn bored and too damn spoiled to live in such a great prosperous time where science and health care has led to mostly pain free (extended) lives. Our ancestors would’ve killed to have had access to vaccines. We’ve been spoiled with great health care for so long that we’ve forgotten what has made long healthy lives possible; vaccines and vaccine mandates. Just look at what life expectancy and infant mortality rates were in this country one century ago before all of these “pesky vaccines and their mandates.”

Just had my moderna booster yesterday afternoon. Barely had a sore arm yesterday. Went for a run. Today I’m feeling it a little more. Arm is sore, tired, have some mild aches. Just popped 3 ibprofins and it’ll probably take care of that. Let’s see what happens tomorrow!

 

[One Brow]

I don't think anyone should be forced to be vaccinated and I think it's ridiculous people lose their jobs because of it.

No one is being forced.

It would be ridiculous if people lost jobs because they refused to wear hard hats, or steel-toed shoes, or hair nets. However, we wouldn't be blaming the company that requires the hats, shoes, and/or nets.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

mRNA vaccines are new and I'm sure there are going to be things we will learn about them. Fortunately there is a more traditional vaccine for COVID.

Not for kids. In the United States there is exactly 1 vaccine authorized for kids under the age of 16 and it isn't "a more traditional vaccine". As for "I'm sure there are going to be things we will learn about [mRNA vaccines]", that would be my sentiments as well where my kid is concerned.

As for myself, I'm happily Pfizer'd and am going to get a J&J booster. My switching to J&J for the booster has nothing to do with concerns over mRNA vaccines which I see as technical marvels, but rather research that has shown an advantage to employing a mixed regime.

Mix-and-match COVID vaccines trigger potent immune response

Preliminary results from a trial of more than 600 people are the first to show the benefits of combining different vaccines.

www.nature.com

We don't have the AstraZenneca vaccine here in the US, but the J&J is an adenovirus vaccine like the AstraZenneca and in theory should act similarly.

 

[gandalfe]

I'm conflicted on this issue because I agree that people shouldn't be forced to get a vaccine. I'm just frustrated because the number of people making the wrong choice on this is so large. That puts all of us at greater risk. This isn't just a decision they are making for themselves, it is a decision that can mean that the virus mutates a few more times and potentially overcomes the vaccine and/or becomes much more deadly.

In a perfect world where enough people were getting vaccinated, then, no, people shouldn't be forced to take it. But this is putting EVERYONE at risk, because there are so many idiots who have decided not to get the vaccine, because freedom. That apparently includes the freedom to get sick and die, or not die but be horrible crippled, and to inflict the same consequences on everyone you meet.

Nobody should be forced to wear seatbelts, either, or drink clean water, or eat non-diseased meat, but, apparently there are enough idiots who do those things that we have to have regulations about it.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

That apparently includes the freedom to get sick and die, or not die but be horrible crippled, and to inflict the same consequences on everyone you meet.

Gandalfe, I don't mean to pick on you but you phrased this argument so well that I can't let the opportunity pass. Sorry in advance, but even though I'm pro-vaccine (for adults) I've always thought that argument is funny.

Everyone needs to take the vaccine so they won't spread it to everyone including the vaccinated because even being vaccinated doesn't stop COVID, so to stop COVID everyone needs to be vaccinated as that is the only way to stop the already vaccinated from being infected by COVID.

 

[One Brow]

Gandalfe, I don't mean to pick on you but you phrased this argument so well that I can't let the opportunity pass. Sorry in advance, but even though I'm pro-vaccine (for adults) I've always thought that argument is funny.

Everyone needs to take the vaccine so they won't spread it to everyone including the vaccinated because even being vaccinated doesn't stop COVID, so to stop COVID everyone needs to be vaccinated as that is the only way to stop the already vaccinated from being infected by COVID.

Do you understand that there is a small number of people who are immuno-compromised (the vaccine doesn't work), and another group for whom the vaccine simply doesn't work for random reasons? Don't their lives count?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Do you understand that there is a small number of people who are immuno-compromised (the vaccine doesn't work), and another group for whom the vaccine simply doesn't work for random reasons? Don't their lives count?

The argument goes with "inflict the same consequences on everyone", not a small subset, "everyone". Immuno-compromised, not immuno-compromised, vaccinated, unvaccinated, young, old, EVERYONE will be inflicted by the SAME consequences. According to the argument, being vaccinated doesn't make a difference so the only way to make a difference is to be vaccinated.

 

[fishonjazz]

The argument goes with "inflict the same consequences on everyone", not a small subset, "everyone". Immuno-compromised, not immuno-compromised, vaccinated, unvaccinated, young, old, EVERYONE will be inflicted by the SAME consequences. According to the argument, being vaccinated doesn't make a difference so the only way to make a difference is to be vaccinated.

Why do you say that being vaccinated doesn't make a difference?