Its Time to Tank

[idiot]

There are degrees to this stuff and both of those guys might help us next year. If I say I'm going on a diet that could be cutting out sweets and eating out... doesn't mean I have to eat cucumbers and drink water exclusively. I might get good enough results making some significant changes without making radical changes.

So according to the tanking philosophy, finishing with the 8th worst record (maybe, perhaps -- 9th or 10th more likely) is good enough?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

So according to the tanking philosophy, finishing with the 8th worst record (maybe, perhaps -- 9th or 10th more likely) is good enough?

When you only have 1/3 of the season left and are sitting at 12th.... yes.

Also the Jazz might value KO/JC more than the seconds they maybe could have gotten and moving from 8th or 9th to maybe 7th. Just because they didn't go scorched earth doesn't mean they didn't do the other deals in part to influence the standings. Everyone seems to have their own definition of tanking... offloading current talent to finish with a better pick is a core tenet of whatever rational definition people use. We 100% did that... just not quick enough for some or to the extreme others would like.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Media read us wrong and thought we have a poorly constructed team. They have since come around and history will call us a team "that was supposed to tank but didnt". We actually went for a faster rebuild.

Danny took back NBA starter level players in all but one of those trades. They took the Cleveland trade over Knicks trade because the players were better and thus the value was better. Danny was adamant that Lauri is part of the trade and they saw what he did in NT qualifications.

They traded for a spacing center in Olynyk because Kessler wasnt supposed to be good and Hardy wanted to play a certain brand of ball. Thats team construction.

We had the deepest bench in the league (Beasley, Sexton, THT, NAW, Ochai, Kessler, Gay) and while our starters werent ment to be as good as they turned out they were still miles better than Houston etc. We had the 10th oldest team coming into the year.

They even kept Conley, an All-star from few seasons ago... and Clarkson, who they knew was good.

The only people that seem to think the jazz didn’t have tanking on the mind none jazzfan, Markkanen fans from is home. You don’t trade your top 3 options in your starting lineup for picks and role players if you’re having thoughts of making the playoffs. No one in the jazz org saw Markkanen and said “ya!! He’s an allstar!!” Let alone an allstar starter scoring almost 25 a game 9 boards over 40% from 3 and a good defender. I’m also pretty sure they didn’t see him as the #1 option. Deep down you all knew this but got excited just as the rest of us when the jazz stRted 10-3 while in the middle of a rough part of the schedule playing all the playoff teams and back to backs. No one saw Markkanen doing what he’s done. And don’t mention euro league as a sign. The nba is a different beast he’ll, Fontecchio. Had a great tournament there as well and he can’t get off the bench.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

The only people that seem to think the jazz didn’t have tanking on the mind none jazzfan, Markkanen fans from is home. You don’t trade your top 3 options in your starting lineup for picks and role players if you’re having thoughts of making the playoffs. No one in the jazz org saw Markkanen and said “ya!! He’s an allstar!!” Let alone an allstar starter scoring almost 25 a game 9 boards over 40% from 3 and a good defender. I’m also pretty sure they didn’t see him as the #1 option. Deep down you all knew this but got excited just as the rest of us when the jazz stRted 10-3 while in the middle of a rough part of the schedule playing all the playoff teams and back to backs. No one saw Markkanen doing what he’s done. And don’t mention euro league as a sign. The nba is a different beast he’ll, Fontecchio. Had a great tournament there as well and he can’t get off the bench.

Let’s also not forget while we are in a tight race for playoff seeding as high as 4th seed we traded 4 rotation players for two scrubs and a pick 4 years away that might turn into a second round pick wile facilitating two teams getting better Haha.

 

[homeytennis]

Starting lineup next game: Dok, the two GLeaguers, the two ex Lakers. Gay 1st off the bench.

 

[idiot]

When you only have 1/3 of the season left and are sitting at 12th.... yes.

Also the Jazz might value KO/JC more than the seconds they maybe could have gotten and moving from 8th or 9th to maybe 7th. Just because they didn't go scorched earth doesn't mean they didn't do the other deals in part to influence the standings. Everyone seems to have their own definition of tanking... offloading current talent to finish with a better pick is a core tenet of whatever rational definition people use. We 100% did that... just not quick enough for some or to the extreme others would like.

Yeah, I'm sure we're somewhat speaking past each other because we have different definitions of tanking.

Improving a draft position in moves that also make good long-term sense otherwise a bit is part of a rebuilding strategy to me. Maybe you can even say it's the "tanking" element of the strategy. But when I hear people talk about the need to tank, they so often seem to be saying that the draft position (and thus losing) needs to be the highest priority in the rebuilding strategy. It's that latter use of "tanking" that I don't think the Jazz are fully on board with. They'll clearly accept a few more losses to get a better chance at a higher pick, but they're not pre-occupied by that pursuit. Their goals/strategies/objectives are broader than that (again, as I've said before, unless they're just doing a terrible job of achieving their objectives).

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

So according to the tanking philosophy, finishing with the 8th worst record (maybe, perhaps -- 9th or 10th more likely) is good enough?

You’ve gotta be smarter than that??

 

[fishonjazz]

I heard boler on the radio on my drive home from work tonight saying that he had meetings with the jazz prior to the season starting in which they discussed how to spin positivity during what everyone thought would be a **** ton of losing.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[HermanG]

The only people that seem to think the jazz didn’t have tanking on the mind none jazzfan, Markkanen fans from is home. You don’t trade your top 3 options in your starting lineup for picks and role players if you’re having thoughts of making the playoffs. No one in the jazz org saw Markkanen and said “ya!! He’s an allstar!!” Let alone an allstar starter scoring almost 25 a game 9 boards over 40% from 3 and a good defender. I’m also pretty sure they didn’t see him as the #1 option. Deep down you all knew this but got excited just as the rest of us when the jazz stRted 10-3 while in the middle of a rough part of the schedule playing all the playoff teams and back to backs. No one saw Markkanen doing what he’s done. And don’t mention euro league as a sign. The nba is a different beast he’ll, Fontecchio. Had a great tournament there as well and he can’t get off the bench.

I agree about most of this. Also want to add that Lauri has been good in the NT before, and it hasnt translated into the NBA. No one saw the ascension coming this year, albeit some people suspected it seeing that Lauri was likely to be a top option here which he has been in international games as well but not in the NBA since his 2nd year.

But this tanking debate is an ongoing loop that always ends up in the same place... agree to disagree. The reason is terminology really. While many here think that all moves that make the roster worse are shades of tanking, I don't. Rebuilding is necessary in various situations and we were in one last year despite finishing at the top of the standings. But it just wasnt working and it was time to cash out on at least some of it.

There is a difference between trying to make the best possible end product with limited ingredients and trying to intentionally create a bad product. Even the trade we made which was obviously very likely to make us worse in the short term, was made with clear future intentions. Had the primary goal been to make the product worse, they should have done more.

 

[The Midnight]

Anyone got a tl;dr version of fish and Herman back and forth?

Don’t feel like reading the last 10 pages but still wanna know.

 

[Udidthizz]

Listened to an interview with the great Andy Larsen on the Drive with Spence Checketts... He mentioned the front office considering part of the value of the trade with LA that they would move down the standings. Said they would not be rooting for too many more wins this season. Said some FO folks kinda pitched it to him like if you move from 12 to 8 on draft night that would cost at least an extra first...

Feels like I have heard these sentiments before... I wonder if any posters on here had been saying basically that same thing. Strange.

Sure. But you could also move down the standings without giving up anything by being a bit creative with your injury list and line ups. I get their point, but it's simply a consequence when you do a somewhat uneven trade: it makes you worse, hence a potentially better draft pick.

 

[HermanG]

Anyone got a tl;dr version of fish and Herman back and forth?

Don’t feel like reading the last 10 pages but still wanna know.

I would say it was an opinionated terminology debate about whether our downgrading moves within the last year qualify as tanking or rebuilding or both. Thats how I would summarize it.