Its Time to Tank

[fishonjazz]

I would say it was an opinionated terminology debate about whether our downgrading moves within the last year qualify as tanking or rebuilding or both. Thats how I would summarize it.

Well said


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[Thee Jazz Fan]

I agree about most of this. Also want to add that Lauri has been good in the NT before, and it hasnt translated into the NBA. No one saw the ascension coming this year, albeit some people suspected it seeing that Lauri was likely to be a top option here which he has been in international games as well but not in the NBA since his 2nd year.

But this tanking debate is an ongoing loop that always ends up in the same place... agree to disagree. The reason is terminology really. While many here think that all moves that make the roster worse are shades of tanking, I don't. Rebuilding is necessary in various situations and we were in one last year despite finishing at the top of the standings. But it just wasnt working and it was time to cash out on at least some of it.

There is a difference between trying to make the best possible end product with limited ingredients and trying to intentionally create a bad product. Even the trade we made which was obviously very likely to make us worse in the short term, was made with clear future intentions. Had the primary goal been to make the product worse, they should have done more.

It is possible to tank and build for the future.

 

[The Midnight]

I would say it was an opinionated terminology debate about whether our downgrading moves within the last year qualify as tanking or rebuilding or both. Thats how I would summarize it.

I would say it is a half hearted tank designed to keep the fans engaged, sell tickets and still get a half decent draft pick… now what would you call that?

 

[HermanG]

I would say it is a half hearted tank designed to keep the fans engaged, sell tickets and still get a half decent draft pick… now what would you call that?

Rebuilding and tanking both make you worse by default. Retooling is about changing pieces around aiming to maintain the level of performance.

Tanking is when you prioritize draft and make the team worse by design while in rebuilding you prioritize in getting good players or maximum overall value regardless of how it affects team performance.

Of course you always give value to your own draft pick and how moves affect it.. question to me is more about the priority of things. I dont think losing has been a top priority for us thus far. We didnt do enough to achieve it on the DL either.

 

[Eddie Zero]

It is possible to tank and build for the future.

lol thats what tanking is, and we were never fully tanking. Complete destruction requires you to make all moves for the future only, that didn't really happen last summer.
The sell off at the deadline was more tankish, but the team retained key players that are already contributors to winning. That is still not tanking. its just retooling.
Now if we traded the Finnisher Sexton and Agbaji for scrubs and futures I might say we were tanking

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Interesting article on the tank race, play in, etc.

After AS break is where tanking gets super serious... we are setup and have an opportunity with not many diving head first into the tank race. We may end up being just too good for too long... but the article was interesting... copied the Jazz portion as it is behind a paywall.

https://theathletic.com/4243267/2023/02/23/victor-wembanyama-nba-draft-lottery/

Utah (29-31): This is the team to watch as far as pulling the rip cord on a standings slide after midseason trades removed Mike Conley, Malik Beasley and Jarred Vanderbilt from the mix. However, how far could they really go? The Jazz have already banked 29 wins and have three games left against the Spurs. They were also able to win road games in Toronto and Indiana even after the trade deadline.

It would be an awful look for the Jazz to capitulate right now, just half a game from the 10th position, but that stance might change if their three games in the next 10 days against Oklahoma City(!) don’t go well. Positioning themselves behind the Lakers, Bulls and Blazers in the standings would give their odds a nice jolt and likely wouldn’t even require that brazen a tanking effort. However, catching the Pacers and Magic to reverse-thrust into the bottom six seems unlikely.

 

[HermanG]

I would say it is a half hearted tank designed to keep the fans engaged, sell tickets and still get a half decent draft pick… now what would you call that?

Lol I didnt answer your question. I think all moves we have made have been made prioritizing value and other things than tanking our record (cap, development etc).

So I call them just rebuilding moves without the tanking label. I do hope we also get a high pick at this point as it seems that few extra losses could significantly increase our chances in landing additional starter quality guy.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Interesting article on the tank race, play in, etc.

After AS break is where tanking gets super serious... we are setup and have an opportunity with not many diving head first into the tank race. We may end up being just too good for too long... but the article was interesting... copied the Jazz portion as it is behind a paywall.

https://theathletic.com/4243267/2023/02/23/victor-wembanyama-nba-draft-lottery/

Utah (29-31): This is the team to watch as far as pulling the rip cord on a standings slide after midseason trades removed Mike Conley, Malik Beasley and Jarred Vanderbilt from the mix. However, how far could they really go? The Jazz have already banked 29 wins and have three games left against the Spurs. They were also able to win road games in Toronto and Indiana even after the trade deadline.

It would be an awful look for the Jazz to capitulate right now, just half a game from the 10th position, but that stance might change if their three games in the next 10 days against Oklahoma City(!) don’t go well. Positioning themselves behind the Lakers, Bulls and Blazers in the standings would give their odds a nice jolt and likely wouldn’t even require that brazen a tanking effort. However, catching the Pacers and Magic to reverse-thrust into the bottom six seems unlikely.

Some of the highlights on this year's "race". The bottom 4 are pretty set... Indiana and Orlando may do some light tanking but not a lot of motivation to be too bad as their spots are somewhat set because the two teams closest to them have no motivation to tank as they don't own their picks. This is the hole we can step into... 7 or 8 if we pull the cord or if we just suck.

I doubt OKC rests SGA unless he is really hurt. He has a good shot at all-nba which would mean he gets a big financial boost.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Lol I didnt answer your question. I think all moves we have made have been made prioritizing FUTURE value and other things than tanking our record (cap, development etc).

So I call them just rebuilding moves without the tanking label. I do hope we also get a high pick at this point as it seems that few extra losses could significantly increase our chances in landing additional starter quality guy.

I think there is a key word missing...

Not necessarily directed at you but all this stuff were we call it tanking or rebuilding is kind of hilarious... reminds me of going to "business meetings" with friends and then asking if this is a "pyramid scheme"... and they are like "lol no... not a pyramid scheme... its a multi-tiered sales network organization". Okay sure.

 

[HermanG]

I think there is a key word missing...

Not necessarily directed at you but all this stuff were we call it tanking or rebuilding is kind of hilarious... reminds me of going to "business meetings" with friends and then asking if this is a "pyramid scheme"... and they are like "lol no... not a pyramid scheme... its a multi-tiered sales network organization". Okay sure.

Actually it wasnt missing. I was referring to overall value of the package coming back, current + future.

And I know terminology is a funny thing, but to me a team is tanking only if top priority is set to the next draft.

If that has truely been our top target at any point (including the trade deadline deal), then our FO gets a much worse grade for their decissions (including the ones they didnt make, like trading JC who already won us the Pacers game).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Actually it wasnt missing. I was referring to overall value of the package coming back, current + future.

I mean trading an all-nba center for a rookie, some role players and picks is future value, trading an all star guard for a couple fliers on young vets and picks is looking at future value, trading Mike, Vando, Malik for a pick is future value... THT and KO are minor deals. Its very clear that the overall value was like 80/20 future vs current.

And I know terminology is a funny thing, but to me a team is tanking only if top priority is set to the next draft.

If that has truely been our top target at any point (including the trade deadline deal), then our FO gets a much worse grade for their decissions (including the ones they didnt make, like trading JC who already won us the Pacers game).

Front office may not fully be able to game the system but its too early since the deadline to say they failed with the tank to the middle of the lotto (if that was one of their goals). The next 5 or so games will be a big part in determining how successful that effort was. I think it was a secondary benefit (which is why JC and KO weren't sold off for scraps)... I personally won't judge too harshly if we end up in the play in... it would just mean Lauri and Walker went to another level and THT isn't terrible. I assume Collin will miss 5 games or so before coming back.

 

[Eddie Zero]

If we were fully tanking we suck at it, and should lose all our picks for not being good enough at it smh