Israel-Hamas War

[Al-O-Meter]

I was talking about the shift among the rest of the world, people who are pro-Israel but disagree with Netanyahu's actions in Gaza. I don't know the answer for Israel but right now they are losing the optics war.

I've seen no shift at all. It started as anti-Jew. It is still anti-Jew. As said earlier, all of the mass gatherings that made the news in the immediate aftermath of the October 7 attacks were pro-Palestinian. All of them. Over a thousand Jews had been murdered by Hamas and there were no sizable gatherings in support of Israel. There is no way for Israel to win the optics war because their multi-racial society is ~75% Jewish.

If you've never met a truly antisemitic person, it will change your opinion of humans. I'm not talking about ignorant American kids who don't know history but see the world in oppressors and oppressed, but genuinely antisemitic people. There was a guy I once knew from India. He'd only been in the US for a couple years, and when he'd talk about Jews it was shocking. Humans can harbor a depth of hatred that I can't fathom. I have been wronged and badly wounded in my life, but I've never felt the level of hatred I could see in him, and it was toward people he'd never met but were born wrong.

Trying to win an unwinnable optics battle is a wasted effort. If they are going to lose the optics battle anyway, they should at least take care of what needs to be taken care of. The head of Hamas has said October 7 was only the first. He vowed Hamas would strike again, and again, and again until there were no Jews left alive between the river and the sea. Hamas needs to be wiped out completely.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Who is the member of congress you speak of?

Rashida Tlaib.

 

[fishonjazz]

Rashida Tlaib.

Who does she think trash talking jews will swing the presidential election in favor to? I dont think I have heard either presidential candidate be really anti israel. If either has its been trump. I find it strange that Tlaib would want trump to win the presidential election as he has come off as anti muslim in the past.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Who does she think trash talking jews will swing the presidential election in favor to? I dont think I have heard either presidential candidate be really anti israel. If either has its been trump. I find it strange that Tlaib would want trump to win the presidential election as he has come off as anti muslim in the past.

Being that Trump's favorite daughter is married to a Jew, I'd say that is a fair statement but Tlaib is a moron. I don't think she's thought that far ahead.

“Mr. President, the American people are not with you on this one ... We will remember in 2024.” --Rashida Tlaib

[Tlaib's] video – which features images of protests with chants of “Free Palestine” and ‘From the river to the sea” across Michigan, California, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois and New York – ends with text that states: “Joe Biden supported the genocide of the Palestinian people,” “The American people won’t forget,” “Biden, support the ceasefire now,” and “Or don’t count on us in 2024.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/03/politics/tlaib-biden-palestinian-genocide/index.html

 

[Douchebag K]

Who does she think trash talking jews will swing the presidential election in favor to? I dont think I have heard either presidential candidate be really anti israel. If either has its been trump. I find it strange that Tlaib would want trump to win the presidential election as he has come off as anti muslim in the past.

yeah she's doing Don a big favour. Not the sharpest tool in the shed

 

[Douchebag K]

So was in Melbourne Aust city on the weekend, as every other weekend a reasonable sized pro Palestinian rally was on. Watching TV and listening to the interview of the spokesperson it sounded all very reasonable a call for human rights Cool. But walking around trying to get to the show my family was going to there were quite a number of chants of "Alluha Akbar" and speeches leading to chants which very clearly were meaning eradicating Israel. And it wasn't subtle. First time that i've really seen ethnic hatred so clearly here. Very disturbing.

 

[JimLes]

Sometimes, I wish I could be gentile just for a little bit, so I could be shocked and surprised at the existence of antisemitism and treat it as something novel and unusual. Must be nice.

It's very easy to look at all this out of context, like the last 1000 or so years of history didn't happen. Like antisemitism exists because of Israel and not the other way around. Israel exists because the rest of the humanity has proven itself utterly unable and/or unwilling to ensure the basic, physical protection Jewish people. Over and over and over again.

Calling for the destruction of the State of Israel as a Jewish state is antisemitism. It doesn't matter what form that takes. It doesn't matter what language you use. It doesn't matter if you cloak it in "decolonization" or "one-state solution" or "everyone should get along" or "a state where it doesn't matter if you're Jewish or Muslim." If the logical conclusion of your argument is that the Jews should not have their own, Jewish state, it's antisemitism.

And gentiles need to stop talking about what antisemitism is or isn't and need to stop trying to define it. Rashida Tlaib or the Queen of Jordan are not the arbiters of what antisemitism is, of who is a Jew, or of how Jews feel about the State of Israel. None of this is new. These are all well-known, tired anti-Jewish tropes and believe it or not, we've seen and heard them before.

 

[One Brow]

I've seen no shift at all. It started as anti-Jew. It is still anti-Jew. As said earlier, all of the mass gatherings that made the news in the immediate aftermath of the October 7 attacks were pro-Palestinian. All of them. Over a thousand Jews had been murdered by Hamas and there were no sizable gatherings in support of Israel.

In S.F., hundreds join urgent gathering to support Israel at war

Hundreds of attendees packed the main sanctuary and balcony at Sherith Israel in S.F. on Sunday as the Jewish community held a solidarity event for Israel.

jweekly.com

Israeli and Palestinian supporters rally across U.S. as Israel declares war after Hamas attack

Supporters of Israel and backers of the Palestinian cause rallied in American cities including New York City, Atlanta and Chicago.

apnews.com

Harvard Affiliates Gather at Hillel to Show Support and Grieve Amid Invasion of Israel | News | The Harvard Crimson

More than 100 University affiliates attended a Harvard Hillel gathering Saturday afternoon to mourn the lives lost to a deadly invasion of Israel by the Islamist militant group Hamas and to offer support to those affected by the attacks.

www.thecrimson.com

Israel Solidarity Events - Jewish Community Relations Council

JCRC Bay Area is the largest collective voice of the Jewish community across San Francisco, the Peninsula, Marin, Sonoma, Napa, Alameda and Contra Costa Counties.

jcrc.org

The level of mendacity on your sources, and gullibility on your part, is astonishing. Where do you get your news from?

 

[One Brow]

If the logical conclusion of your argument is that the Jews should not have their own, Jewish state, it's antisemitism.

If the conclusion of my argument is that Israel needs to provide better services for territories it is occupying, is that antisemitism?

And gentiles need to stop talking about what antisemitism is or isn't and need to stop trying to define it.

Fair enough, though there is disagreement among Jews on which positions are antisemitic.

 

[Sardines]

If the conclusion of my argument is that Israel needs to provide better services for territories it is occupying, is that antisemitism?


Fair enough, though there is disagreement among Jews on which positions are antisemitic.

My understanding, and it could be wrong, is that Gaza is largely left to its own devices while the West Bank is "occupied" by Israel. Gaza, left to their own devices, launched a brutal surprise attack on Israel which seems mostly to have accomplished the goal of telling the Israelis that the Iron Dome is not going to protect you from everything. Now the Israelis seem to be of the opinion, at least their government, that if the Iron Dome can't protect them from Gaza as it was then Gaza is not going to be "that" anymore.

As I've stated, I think the attack on Oct. 7th was intended to provoke an overreaction from Israel. What may not have been intended was that Israel might just keep going well past the disproportionate response level and move on to the -- pardon the phrase which I have not used exactly, but -- ultimate solution level where they take all independence from Gaza and eradicate as much of Hamas as they can. I think that's the stated goal as outlined by Netanyahu.

This whole thing is ugly. It started with an absolutely abhorrent surprise attack on civilians going about their lives and has escalated to destruction of large parts of Gaza, with women and children not being off limits to Israel, either, when they feel legitimate targets have buried themselves amongst them.

One thing I will say as an American, Israel can handle this without us. We don't have to be a party to this. That doesn't mean condemning Israel, it doesn't mean supporting Hamas. It just means that this isn't about us, and we don't really need to make it about us.

 

[One Brow]

My understanding, and it could be wrong, is that Gaza is largely left to its own devices while the West Bank is "occupied" by Israel.

Gaza has been blockaded since 2005, even before Hamas took over. That has severely limited its "devices".

Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One thing I will say as an American, Israel can handle this without us. We don't have to be a party to this. That doesn't mean condemning Israel, it doesn't mean supporting Hamas. It just means that this isn't about us, and we don't really need to make it about us.

That's a lot of people to be callous about.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

In S.F., hundreds join urgent gathering to support Israel at war

Hundreds of attendees packed the main sanctuary and balcony at Sherith Israel in S.F. on Sunday as the Jewish community held a solidarity event for Israel.

jweekly.com

Israeli and Palestinian supporters rally across U.S. as Israel declares war after Hamas attack

Supporters of Israel and backers of the Palestinian cause rallied in American cities including New York City, Atlanta and Chicago.

apnews.com

Harvard Affiliates Gather at Hillel to Show Support and Grieve Amid Invasion of Israel | News | The Harvard Crimson

More than 100 University affiliates attended a Harvard Hillel gathering Saturday afternoon to mourn the lives lost to a deadly invasion of Israel by the Islamist militant group Hamas and to offer support to those affected by the attacks.

www.thecrimson.com

Israel Solidarity Events - Jewish Community Relations Council

JCRC Bay Area is the largest collective voice of the Jewish community across San Francisco, the Peninsula, Marin, Sonoma, Napa, Alameda and Contra Costa Counties.

jcrc.org

The level of mendacity on your sources, and gullibility on your part, is astonishing. Where do you get your news from?

Awwww.....did you find a hundred people? I don't consider 100 to be a mass gathering.

"Tens of thousands" (Washington DC)

‘No ceasefire, no votes’: tens of thousands attend pro-Palestinian rally in Washington DC

Protesters call on Biden to demand ceasefire in Israel-Gaza conflict and end military aid to Israel

www.theguardian.com

"Tens of thousands" (London)

Tens of thousands of pro-Palestinian protesters march in London as Israel-Hamas war roils the world

Tens of thousands of pro-Palestinian demonstrators are marching in London and other cities to demand Israel stop its bombardment of Gaza. Protesters gathered at London's Marble Arch before marching to the government district, Whitehall on Saturday.

apnews.com

"Hundreds of thousands" (Europe)

Hundreds of thousands rally across cities to support Palestinians

Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators rallied in cities in Europe, the Middle East and Asia on Saturday to show support for the Palestinians as Israel's military widened its air and ground offensive on the Gaza Strip.

www.reuters.com

"10,000 people rallied" (Berlin in spite of it being illegal)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/26/palestine-protest-ban-france-germany/

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Gaza has been blockaded since 2005, even before Hamas took over. That has severely limited its "devices".

Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's a lot of people to be callous about.

You mean Israel has border controls on the border with its neighbor like every other country on Earth??? How dare they! Let's ignore that Israel had issued thousands of work permits allowing Gaza residents into Israel every day to work. You know who didn't allow thousands of Gazans through every day? Egypt. I don't hear anyone complaining about Egypt because all of this is nothing but an excuse to hate Jews.,

 

[Sardines]

Gaza has been blockaded since 2005, even before Hamas took over. That has severely limited its "devices".

Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's a lot of people to be callous about.

Okay, so Israel has basically locked the cat in the closet. That isn't the same as occupying and it isn't the same as letting Gaza do what they want. So I was wrong, but Gaza isn't really occupied, either.

My response is NOT callus at all. This isn't an "I don't care what happens" it is an "I'm not in the shoes of any of them, I'm a far removed observer, both sides have blood on their hands." Most importantly it is me saying that Israel can do everything they want to do without us holding their hand and it's not out place to either hold their hand or scold them as if they are our subordinate. There is no right way for the U.S. to engage in this, so we should not engage in this.

That means that we don't need to give Israel any emergency aid to help them do this. It also means it doesn't matter because Israel has the means to do exactly what they want with or without emergency aid from us.

 

[str8line]

Sometimes, I wish I could be gentile just for a little bit, so I could be shocked and surprised at the existence of antisemitism and treat it as something novel and unusual. Must be nice.

It's very easy to look at all this out of context, like the last 1000 or so years of history didn't happen. Like antisemitism exists because of Israel and not the other way around. Israel exists because the rest of the humanity has proven itself utterly unable and/or unwilling to ensure the basic, physical protection Jewish people. Over and over and over again.

Calling for the destruction of the State of Israel as a Jewish state is antisemitism. It doesn't matter what form that takes. It doesn't matter what language you use. It doesn't matter if you cloak it in "decolonization" or "one-state solution" or "everyone should get along" or "a state where it doesn't matter if you're Jewish or Muslim." If the logical conclusion of your argument is that the Jews should not have their own, Jewish state, it's antisemitism.

And gentiles need to stop talking about what antisemitism is or isn't and need to stop trying to define it. Rashida Tlaib or the Queen of Jordan are not the arbiters of what antisemitism is, of who is a Jew, or of how Jews feel about the State of Israel. None of this is new. These are all well-known, tired anti-Jewish tropes and believe it or not, we've seen and heard them before.

In the context of Israel's response in Gaza, do you believe it's antisemitic to question the killing of women and children and impending humanitarian crisis?

 

[JimLes]

In the context of Israel's response in Gaza, do you believe it's antisemitic to question the killing of women and children and impending humanitarian crisis?

Depends on what your proposed alternative is.

 

[One Brow]

You mean Israel has border controls on the border with its neighbor like every other country on Earth??? How dare they!

I was unaware that Israel's border prevented boats from docking or planes from landing.

Let's ignore that Israel had issued thousands of work permits allowing Gaza residents into Israel every day to work.

How does that make up for blockading by air and sea?

You know who didn't allow thousands of Gazans through every day? Egypt. I don't hear anyone complaining about Egypt because all of this is nothing but an excuse to hate Jews.,

Egypt is not engaging in an air-and-sea blockade.

 

[str8line]

Depends on what your proposed alternative is.

Well that's an interesting answer.

 

[One Brow]

Awwww.....did you find a hundred people? I don't consider 100 to be a mass gathering.

I don't consider "pro-Palestinian" to be equivalent to supporting Hamas.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Egypt is not engaging in an air-and-sea blockade.

Of course they are. They didn't build very expensive fortifications to then allow Gaza to fly over the wall or sail around it. They have gone farther than Israel in that every time they find a tunnel they pipe sea water into it to flood it and kill everyone in any tunnel attached to that tunnel. So far Israel has never done that. It was not that long ago that Palestinians created a civil war in Egypt. They are VERY serious about maintaining their control over their neighbor.