The funny **** about the Dejounte Murray breakout year in SAS is that his presence held back the Spurs from knowing how special Derrick White was...
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- Thread starter Elizah Huge
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jom2003
Well-Known Member
It's changed since. He's making 2.5 threes per game on 38% clip. Murray is definitely a well above average 3pt shooter now by all standards.
I think it's fair to question how much Lavine and Murray actually help you win. Looking at some data, their 3 year RAPM (20-23) isn't actual that bad:
RAPM rank / Luck Adjusted RAPM rank:
Lavine: 90 / 79
Murray: 96 / 70
These numbers are still noisy in a multi-year context, but I was actually surprised both were so high. They (Lavine in particular) have a reputation as losing players, but their teams' performance with and without them doesn't suggest that. They are not +/- gods like IQ or Caruso, but grade out higher than other players mentioned who would typically be seen as "winning" players. Overall I'd still say they are both a tad overrated by their box score output, I think they fall higher in consensus rankings because of that output. But their teams' performance does not suggest they are obvious, losing players. My first impression from diving into the rapm data is that while they are overrated from a casual fan's perspective, they probably get too much flak from the diehards.
Lavine is a really strong offensive player + neutral defender whose main contribution is bringing up the team's offensive efficiency. Defensively, he kills his team as a rebounder, but is better in other than you would expect elsewhere. IMO, this checks out. He's obviously a very efficient scorer, and defensively his effort isn't there which is reflected in the poor rebounding.
Murray is more of an all around player. His rebounding is good but does not make as much of an impact as you would expect. The one area where Murray stands out is reducing the amount of time his team turns over the ball, where he is elite. His impact on FTr is also very bad, which checks out and is the main thing keeping him from the next level.
RAPM rank / Luck Adjusted RAPM rank:
Lavine: 90 / 79
Murray: 96 / 70
These numbers are still noisy in a multi-year context, but I was actually surprised both were so high. They (Lavine in particular) have a reputation as losing players, but their teams' performance with and without them doesn't suggest that. They are not +/- gods like IQ or Caruso, but grade out higher than other players mentioned who would typically be seen as "winning" players. Overall I'd still say they are both a tad overrated by their box score output, I think they fall higher in consensus rankings because of that output. But their teams' performance does not suggest they are obvious, losing players. My first impression from diving into the rapm data is that while they are overrated from a casual fan's perspective, they probably get too much flak from the diehards.
Lavine is a really strong offensive player + neutral defender whose main contribution is bringing up the team's offensive efficiency. Defensively, he kills his team as a rebounder, but is better in other than you would expect elsewhere. IMO, this checks out. He's obviously a very efficient scorer, and defensively his effort isn't there which is reflected in the poor rebounding.
Murray is more of an all around player. His rebounding is good but does not make as much of an impact as you would expect. The one area where Murray stands out is reducing the amount of time his team turns over the ball, where he is elite. His impact on FTr is also very bad, which checks out and is the main thing keeping him from the next level.
jom2003
Well-Known Member
White has also made remarkable improvement as a shooter since leaving Spurs though. Who knows what his shooting is gonna look like had he stayed with them. I'd say their shooting development is highly overrated. Especially after Engelland left. Just look at Sochan and Wemby.
Bro… team record is what you’re using to decipher who’s better or not… wild. When you’re reaching this hard and agreeing with TU on something it’s time to take a look in the mirror.
jom2003
Well-Known Member
Celtics version of White now would take much more than just 2 firsts lol. Spurs sold low on him plus he's made great improvement on his game since landing in Boston.
I mean, I've used other things as well. Just giving you all the pieces.
I just dont think a player have a great season on a mediocre team is the end all be all. Teams have been using "look at how skilled and talented D'Lo is" for years now and he hasnt made a good team better. He's a great floor raiser though and I think that's what Dejounte ultimately is.
I just dont want someone on my team who has to take 17 shots to average 20 per game. It's just hard to win a lot of games that way. The moment his shooting efficiency drops he's going to be an absolute toilet scorer.
Fosto
Well-Known Member
Not because of Russell surely???
jom2003
Well-Known Member
Wait. What? Spurs went 34-48 the next season after losing Murray, dropping its winning percentage by 4%. Where did you get the 42-40 from?
The Nets.
I don't understand why Cy is trying to die on this hill that Murray is a mediocre player. Is the guy a superstar? No. Is the guy a borderline all star with a good contract? Yes. Is the guy at the correct age range to pair with Lauri for the future? Yes. With all that said I would still prefer to trade off vets and focus on the rebuild but I don't think there should be any debate that Murray is a really good player and a nice fit for us.
Russell is a good player. He's just better on a middling team without expectations.
I guess we dont know for sure Dejounte is that kind of player, but he hasnt changed anything in Atlanta. They've only gotten worse with him. There's enough built in excuses to ignore it, but it's still a thing.