Court: California gay marriage ban is unconstitutional

[craig2112]

Individual Mormons? Nothing. They should be involved as everyone should be. The "Mormon Church" on the other hand has this whole "tax exempt" status thing to worry about.

In that case, I want all unions to get out of politics.

I keep hearing about this "Tax exempt" status. People like you want the church to lose it so badly. But the church has not lost it, probably because they have not done anything to deserve to lose it. If they had, I assure you they would have lost it by now.

There is no law that says groups cannot be involved in politics.

You may as well say that Democrats and Republicans should not be involved in politics

 

[TroutBum]

So why should Mormons stay out of politics.
Seems to me that Democrats love to go and campaign in churches all over the place. Is anyone telling those churches to stay out of politics?
How about all the unions? They are political as can be, and tend to vote straight democrat. Anyone telling them to stay out of politics?

So what is it about Mormons that bars them from politics? Because they don't follow the so-called mainstream?

Like someone said above, who cares if Mo's run for office, that is not what I meant. What I meant was the Mormon Church needs to stay out of politics. That is, don't pick a side. Stay neutral. Of course we all know what they believe and who they support, but by doing it publicly, they then alienate a chunk of their members and who knows how many future converts. It's easy for you to not see this because you agree with what the Mo's are supporting. I do not agree. If you think that that doesn't wear on my faith, you're crazy.

 

[Stoked]

Giving children a stable environment to be raised in is the point of marriage whether you recognize that or not.

Simply becasue you say so?

Marrriage is whatever the people entering into it want it to be. That is the truth wether you recognize it or not.

 

[GVC]

I am not afraid of stating my beliefs at all. I think I have proven that pretty well. I think I exposed myself to ridicule the moment I entered this thread.
But I have been involved in these kinds of discussions before. I can tell the difference between people who want a civil dicussion, and those who want to do something other than be civil.

I think most people are ridiculing you for your ridiculously false, or at least unsupported, statements of "fact". I still think you'd deserve to be ridiculed for saying same-sex marriage should be outlawed because God said so, but at least you'd be giving some explanation of your position.

You've yet to offer any support for your statement that it's a fact homosexuality destroys nations. It's unlikely I, or anyone else, will forget you stated that until you either apologize for saying it or offer some support for your claim.

So...is the only reason you're against same-sex marriage that you believe God is against it?

 

[Bronco70]

Why choose to be miserable? A lot of people are miserable. Not because they chose to be miserable, but because they made bad choices in life and now suffer the consequences.

This is why I see it as a contradiction. Homosexuality doesn't seem like one of those things that would have to be permanent, once the choice is made. If I join a bowling team, and find out I don't like the guys at the bowling alley, because they always make fun of the way I throw the ball, and won't let me have any beer, I would probably find something else to do with my time. I know this is an overly simplified analogy, but my point is, it doesn't seem to me like anyone who chooses to be that way would be locked into it. And if it isn't a choice, it would have to be biology, right?

 

[Stoked]

In that case, I want all unions to get out of politics.

I keep hearing about this "Tax exempt" status. People like you want the church to lose it so badly. But the church has not lost it, probably because they have not done anything to deserve to lose it. If they had, I assure you they would have lost it by now.

There is no law that says groups cannot be involved in politics.

You may as well say that Democrats and Republicans should not be involved in politics

Damn man, you assume way to much. I do not want the mormon church to lose it status. I want them to honor the conditions of that status as I want any other group with that status to do so. Just because some union is not doing so is no reason for the mormon church to follow their lead. If the mormon church wants to get involved in politics then that is fantastic. Just be prepared to lose that status.

Your republican and democrat example is just stupid. Stop grandstanding and try to have that civil discourse you want so badly. You listen to people but you do not hear what people are saying. There is a world of difference.

 

[Captain Lobster]

Hypocrite.

I could be wrong, but I think Trout was referring to the LDS church institution, not individual members.
Members can run for office if they want, but should keep their religious beliefs out of it.
Am I right or wrong Mr Dave?

 

[craig2112]

Like someone said above, who cares if Mo's run for office, that is not what I meant. What I meant was the Mormon Church needs to stay out of politics. That is, don't pick a side. Stay neutral. Of course we all know what they believe and who they support, but by doing it publicly, they then alienate a chunk of their members and who knows how many future converts. It's easy for you to not see this because you agree with what the Mo's are supporting. I do not agree. If you think that that doesn't wear on my faith, you're crazy.

None of those things worry me.
If someone leaves the Mormon church because the church takes a stand on a political issus, then that is their own problem and their faith is not strong.
If someone decides not to join or investigate the church because the church stood a stand on a politcal issue, that is their own choice and they live with it.
I am very glad that my church takes a stand on moral issues. It always will. I happen to believe that God takes a stand on moral issues also.

I know of a lot of people who have become disaffected with the church because of the Prop 8 issue. I know know many people who become disaffected with the church because of the Word of Wisdom, Chastity, they got offended because someone wasn't nice to them, on and on and on.

It's gonna happen. My choice is to make sure that I follow the prophet. I figure if I am on his side, then I am probably doing pretty well. (waiting for all those who say I can't think for myself, and just follow blindly)

I also tend to find that if I live right (Utah fans get mad), and study the scriptures, then I don't need to bend my ideas to fit what the prophet is saying. When he speaks, it makes sense, and I already support him.

Kind of like when I listen to Rush Limbaugh. Poeple like to say that I just think whatever Rush tells me to think. But I have studied history, I have studied the Constitution extensively, and I keep up with current events. When Rush says things, I have already made up my mind and Rush just happens to very well articulate what I believe. (Now, I've gone and done it!)

 

[craig2112]

I think most people are ridiculing you for your ridiculously false, or at least unsupported, statements of "fact". I still think you'd deserve to be ridiculed for saying same-sex marriage should be outlawed because God said so, but at least you'd be giving some explanation of your position.

You've yet to offer any support for your statement that it's a fact homosexuality destroys nations. It's unlikely I, or anyone else, will forget you stated that until you either apologize for saying it or offer some support for your claim.

So...is the only reason you're against same-sex marriage that you believe God is against it?

Haven't you figured out that the main reason I am not answering that question is because you want me to so badly?

And I have offered up reasons for what I said, besides "God Said So", but you didn't like them, so you just dismissed them.

 

[craig2112]

This is why I see it as a contradiction. Homosexuality doesn't seem like one of those things that would have to be permanent, once the choice is made. If I join a bowling team, and find out I don't like the guys at the bowling alley, because they always make fun of the way I throw the ball, and won't let me have any beer, I would probably find something else to do with my time. I know this is an overly simplified analogy, but my point is, it doesn't seem to me like anyone who chooses to be that way would be locked into it. And if it isn't a choice, it would have to be biology, right?

and there are many homosexuals who have "gotten over it" and returned to heterosexuality. Personally, I don't know any but I have read about them.

As for choices being permanent...I have observed that when people start down a certain path, it can be very difficult for them to get off of that path, especially the deeper they go into it. We could discuss that one all day, and it would be much more interesting than the rest of this crap

 

[GVC]

Haven't you figured out that the main reason I am not answering that question is because you want me to so badly?

And I have offered up reasons for what I said, besides "God Said So", but you didn't like them, so you just dismissed them.

I didn't dismiss them, I responded to them. Further, I asked you to provide some support for your "reasons". Since you've given none, I can only assume that your stated reasons that make sense (in this case, your religious beliefs) are your only real reasons. Asking and answering questions is how you have a discussion.

 

[craig2112]

Damn man, you assume way to much. I do not want the mormon church to lose it status. I want them to honor the conditions of that status as I want any other group with that status to do so. Just because some union is not doing so is no reason for the mormon church to follow their lead. If the mormon church wants to get involved in politics then that is fantastic. Just be prepared to lose that status.

Your republican and democrat example is just stupid. Stop grandstanding and try to have that civil discourse you want so badly. You listen to people but you do not hear what people are saying. There is a world of difference.

I never said I wanted a civil discouse. You all did. I bring it up to laugh.

Be prepared to lose that status? It hasn't happened and I doubt it ever will. If there was a reason to strip the status, I'm sure it would have been done by now.

and your last point I listen but don't hear, I can only offer this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3YfAu2dIV4

 

[TroutBum]

Ya, I got nothing.

 

[craig2112]

I could be wrong, but I think Trout was referring to the LDS church institution, not individual members.
Members can run for office if they want, but should keep their religious beliefs out of it.
Am I right or wrong Mr Dave?

Is there a law that says person must keep their religious views out of politics? I must have missed that one...or are you creating a new law?

 

[PearlWatson]

I could be wrong, but I think Trout was referring to the LDS church institution, not individual members.
Members can run for office if they want, but should keep their religious beliefs out of it.
Am I right or wrong Mr Dave?

So the Mormon prophet and apostles who run the church should shut up because they are on the "wrong" side of the homosexual marriage issue?

Don't Mormons get excommunicated for believing they know better than the "prophet of God?"

 

[craig2112]

I didn't dismiss them, I responded to them. Further, I asked you to provide some support for your "reasons". Since you've given none, I can only assume that your stated reasons that make sense (in this case, your religious beliefs) are your only real reasons. Asking and answering questions is how you have a discussion.

Oh, that's good. Well, I responded to everything too. I just chose "No response" as my response.

I am under no obligation to answer anything. If I feel like coming in here and stating a point and then leaving for good, I can do that.
Or is there a rule on Jazzfanz that says that I have to answer EVERY question that comes to me?

 

[GVC]

Oh, that's good. Well, I responded to everything too. I just chose "No response" as my response.

I am under no obligation to answer anything. If I feel like coming in here and stating a point and then leaving for good, I can do that.
Or is there a rule on Jazzfanz that says that I have to answer EVERY question that comes to me?

No rule, of course, but I hope everyone ridicules the **** out of you if you choose to be such a tool.

 

[Captain Lobster]

Is there a law that says person must keep their religious views out of politics? I must have missed that one...or are you creating a new law?

Don't put words in my mouth.
I never said there was a law against it.
It's my opinion that they should keep their religious views out of it.

 

[Stoked]

I really liked you Craig but I am having an increasingly hard time doing so and I generally like everyone.

I never said the mormon church will lose or is going to lose that status. I never defended unions with that status getting involved in politics. The discussion was specifically about the mormon church as an institution not getting involved in politics.

Any organization/group with a tax exempt status should stay out of politics as a organization/group unless they do not care about that tax exempt status.

You just automatically assume everyone is against you when that is not the truth at all. Hopefully you are only trolling and this is not really your outlook on life. If it is I pity you.

 

[Stoked]

Don't put words in my mouth.
I never said there was a law against it.
It's my opinion that they should keep their religious views out of it.

That is the problem though. He has no interest in what you are really saying. Only in how he can spin it.