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Too good to tank?

Are we too good to tank?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 50.9%

  • No

    Votes: 27 49.1%
  • Total voters
    55
jom2003 said:
Or maybe they are just scrubs. Good player find a way to shine regardless of the environment. I'd argue Ace is a good example of that. He spent the majority of his minutes standing in the corner with zero play set up for him. But he still managed to make the most of it.

You can't turn some non-NBA material into legit NBA player no matter how hard you try unless your name is Quin Snyder.
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Somebody didn't understand how sarcastic we were being.
 
For all the people thinking it’s the end of the world if we convey our pick this year, y’all need to touch grass and get real. There are so many worse things that can happen.

Like when we convey our pick and one of Cleveland or Minnesota wins the lottery.

Always gotta be a few steps ahead.

It gets worse.
 
jom2003 said:
Or maybe they are just scrubs. Good player find a way to shine regardless of the environment. I'd argue Ace is a good example of that. He spent the majority of his minutes standing in the corner with zero play set up for him. But he still managed to make the most of it.

You can't turn some non-NBA material into legit NBA player no matter how hard you try unless your name is Quin Snyder.
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I disagree about Ace. I actually think the system fits him really well, even if he’s just the third or fourth option in the starting five. It highlights his strengths, quick decision-making and decisiveness off the catch, while also helping to mask his biggest weakness, which is his ball handling. He would look much worse in a more static offensive system.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
We are soooo stupid. Like so dumb. Just roll out Cody and Taylor for 30 minutes instead of Svi/Love for 40+. Can still be competitive and lose under the guise of development.

We are going to FAFO and it’s gonna hurt for years. But the vibes lol.

Also, if you think Nurk isn’t a rotation level center you don’t know ball. @Saint Cy of JFC
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That's exactly what I thought when I watched the game last night. Cody and Hendricks should play. It sure looks like AA has given Hardy the green light to try to win our games. We'll see if that changes at some point, because I find it hard to believe that AA’s priority wouldn't be to try to get one of the top players in next year's draft. He was a prospect evaluator and draft guy in Boston for a long time. Or is it Ryan not wanting to tank anymore? Idk, a lot can happen before the season is over. 62 games still left. But it does seem like tanking hasn’t been a focus for us so far. By the way, I could be wrong, but I think it was Justin (not Danny) who was mainly responsible for our hard (and successful) tank last season.
 
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NUMBERICA said:
Meanwhile, half the league’s all-stars are sidelined with injury and the train of the game’s increasing strain producing injuries just keeps building speed.

He’s also a giant playing a style of above-average mobility for his size and has an affinity for amassing nagging injuries that sap his effectiveness. Him making an all-star game relies on the Jazz being good enough (bad outcome) and him being healthy (unlikely outcome if we keep grinding him down). He will be worth more if he’s healthy than if he’s not. Period.

There is no reason to be doing this.
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I said that our other option is to try to increase Lauri’s trade value to get a great offer, and that we couldn’t do that by reducing his minutes. When teams try to boost a player’s trade value, they play them more, not less. Obviously, health is always important, but it’s harder to predict and factor in.
 
Peter_Mentor said:
I disagree about Ace. I actually think the system fits him really well, even if he’s just the third or fourth option in the starting five. It highlights his strengths, quick decision-making and decisiveness off the catch, while also helping to mask his biggest weakness, which is his ball handling. He would look much worse in a more static offensive system.
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Our offense is static enough already. Most of the time it's just Lauri & Key two-man action where everyone else barely gets involved. I lost count of how many times they missed the outlet pass to Ace for a wide open corner three and instead opt for a highly contested jumper. Stats don't lie either. Currently 22nd in offensive rating and not sure how much worse it can get.
 
underdog said:
I said that our other option is to try to increase Lauri’s trade value to get a great offer, and that we couldn’t do that by reducing his minutes. When teams try to boost a player’s trade value, they play them more, not less. Obviously, health is always important, but it’s harder to predict and factor in.
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Lauri is averaging 28 points. I don't think his trade value needs any more boosting.

Doesn't look like the Ainges are gonna shop him though.
 
I feel like it's impossible to tank now. There are several teams that are supposed to be good are loitering around the 5 to 10 range with the Jazz. OKC just might get lucky, getting two lottery picks from the Jazz and Clippers.

The only way to truly embrace the tank is trading Markkanen and George before the trade deadline. But I highly doubt the Jazz would do so. We just have to hope for the best at the draft lottery if we're at the 10 to 14 range and try to move up like the Mavericks.
 
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Handlogten's Heros said:
Like so dumb. Just roll out Cody and Taylor for 30 minutes instead of Svi/Love for 40+. Can still be competitive and lose under the guise of development.
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But isnt that also "anti-developing" when it comes to Key and Ace? Playing them with worse players (especially when they are Cody level worse) feels detrimental to them.

Like what are good/bad habits all about? For me its always been about "playing the right way", and that usually correlates with results in a positive way.
 
jom2003 said:
Or maybe they are just scrubs. Good player find a way to shine regardless of the environment. I'd argue Ace is a good example of that. He spent the majority of his minutes standing in the corner with zero play set up for him. But he still managed to make the most of it.

You can't turn some non-NBA material into legit NBA player no matter how hard you try unless your name is Quin Snyder.
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There are clear things examples of players not developing in certain situations/roles. Some players can certainly shine no matter the situation, but I think it's silly to argue that context outside the individual don't impact their development negatively or positively.

NAW is a great example. In New Orleans he was asked to do way too much and he really sucked. He got to Utah and his role became smaller, he excelled. Then he got to a better team and did even better.

Some players can't develop if they are too much outside their comfort zone. You used Ace as an example, but Ace is more comfortable being an off ball player. The jazz have put him in the perfect role to slowly gain comfortability and confidence.
 
The balance here is ~15mpg for Henny and CW. Put them out there with vets who know how to play. Keep them out there long enough to substantially lower the probability of winning. Don't put them out there with Ace, Key, and WCJ (if he cements a spot in the rotation) for longer than a couple of minutes, if necessary.

this **** ain't hard.
 
NAOS_pt2 said:
The balance here is ~15mpg for Henny and CW. Put them out there with vets who know how to play. Keep them out there long enough to substantially lower the probability of winning. Don't put them out there with Ace, Key, and WCJ (if he cements a spot in the rotation) for longer than a couple of minutes, if necessary.

this **** ain't hard.
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This.
 
Imo if a player is good then he will be good. If he isn't good then he won't be good.
We put keyonte in bad situations on horrible teams with lots of shenanigans and all kinds of turmoil and roster turnover for the last 2 years.
He is balling out. I think we could do it for one more year and he would ball out again next year. He is a really good player.

I think we could put Cody Williams in the ideal situation and he would suck. Because he sucks.
 
fishonjazz said:
Imo if a player is good then he will be good. If he isn't good then he won't be good.
We put keyonte in bad situations on horrible teams with lots of shenanigans and all kinds of turmoil and roster turnover for the last 2 years.
He is balling out. I think we could do it for one more year and he would ball out again next year. He is a really good player.

I think we could put Cody Williams in the ideal situation and he would suck. Because he sucks.
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Braindead take
 
HermanG said:
But isnt that also "anti-developing" when it comes to Key and Ace? Playing them with worse players (especially when they are Cody level worse) feels detrimental to them.

Like what are good/bad habits all about? For me its always been about "playing the right way", and that usually correlates with results in a positive way.
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Maybe... detrimental is maybe too strong. I don't see Taylor as super negative and both guys are actually pretty muted. It puts a few extra lbs on the bar but that might be good too.

I don't think its going to hurt their development in any meaningful or long lasting way. Lauri has had to play with some trashy players the last few years and he has managed to improve.

You don't want 48 minutes of clown show... but 15 minutes of less than good... its just fine imo.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Braindead take
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On the other hand, we both think key is playing great despite the losing culture that has been established during his tenure.
And like HH just said, "Lauri has had to play with some trashy players the last few years and he has managed to improve."
Losing culture hasnt seemed to stop them from being really good players.
Kessler too for that matter.

Collin sexton and John Collins on the other hand went to teams that seem to be trying to win and not pulling any shenanigans and they are both playing worse than when they played for a jazz team doing all the shenanigans and trying hard as possible to lose.
 
infection said:
For all the people thinking it’s the end of the world if we convey our pick this year, y’all need to touch grass and get real. There are so many worse things that can happen.

Like when we convey our pick and one of Cleveland or Minnesota wins the lottery.

Always gotta be a few steps ahead.

It gets worse.
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I get that you’re being funny, but that all starts with conveying the pick. I am way, way ahead of you.
 
We suck with or without Cody and TH. When we look back at things, it will be ridiculous to think that a high 20’s win team is so much different than a low 20’s win team. Even if we’re working under this dumb assumption the tanking team = bad development, it’s not like we’re putting our guys in a winning situation.

A few more L’s doesn’t change the quality of the team that much, but it can change lotto position quite significantly.
 
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