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Lion's Roar

Lion's Roar

Active Member
Hi there folks.

Most of you probably don't know me. I've been with this site for over 10 years now on a variety of nicknames. I was a moderator and contributor for quite some time under the nicknames asgaarder and AsgThunder. I was here before during and after the RealGM merge/unmerge. I was here during the Stockton and Malone days. I was here during the Deron/Boozer years and I'm still around altough mostly in the shadows and I'm not all that active anymore.

I'm speaking out at this point cause I believe the ranting as reached a fever pitch and a state that I haven't seen in 10 years. The event of the social media has created a forum where fans are stating their opinions often and loudly. And who are the ones that talk the most? The ones that are against the Status Quo. I know that's the case. I WAS ONCE the one bickering at the FO and arguing about some decisions. I don't want to be here preaching from a high horse. I'm not a better fan they you guys that disagree with the Status Quo nor am I worse than you. But I think ppl need to chill out and think for a while about what we're witnessing. First of all a refresh on Jazz history:

* Malone didn't start his first year.
* Stockton didn't start till his 4th year.
* S&M were ousted in the first round of the playoffs something like 5 times.
* It took S&M 13 years to reach the Finals.
* Even after playing 17 years together S&M only went to the WCF 5 times.
* The left block post up that fans like to really go after Al for was once a staple of the Jazz offense with Malone working from there.
* For many, MANY years the Jazz offense had little movement. There were no zone defenses allowed and the Jazz played the PnR on one side with the three other players (Eaton included) standing behind the 3 pt line on the other corner. (no one seemed to complain back then)
* I've seen time and again fans going after Sloan and now they act like he was some sort of wizard and should be back and that Ty is so, so bad although his team keeps winning.

What I'm trying to say is that I believe we should be patient. Winning isn't easy in the NBA. It wasn't in the S&M days. Developing talent isn't easy either. Tanking sometimes only leads to a whole lot of years being really bad. It's been just two years since Deron left and we've been in the playoff hunt since and still have 4 lottery picks on board. Other teams like the position the Jazz are in, seemingly only Jazz fans don't like the position their team is in.

Do I believe the FO is always right? No. Neither is the coaching staff. Am I saying to wait 17 years for a Finals appearance? No. Am I glad with the minutes played by the young players. Sometimes, other times I'm not happy at all. I wake up and try and figure out if the Jazz made a move. But in the end of the day I think they would be better suited not making a move at all. Increases the chances of going to the playoffs and simple cap space can be truly underestimated.

So in retrospect we're 4 games over .500, 7th seed in the West, 5 lottery picks on the roster, 2 draft picks coming up on a draft rich in the position the Jazz lack, and a ton of cap space moving forward. Is that really that bad?

PS: Sorry for the long post.
 
Stockton started 38 games his second year, always played plenty of minutes, and did not get one single DNP ever until he was a veteran.
 
Thanks for the nice post and it was not too long, but very thoughtful. Long ones are great if well thought out.

First, I would think that most understand that it takes patience and a long time to make a great team. It usually takes the most talented several years of increasing success in the playoffs to finally get a ring. I think we would be fine with that if it looked like that was where we were heading. I have zero belief that a Big Al, Paul Milsap focus will get us within sniffing distance of a ring, not even close. Do you really expect this team to make noise in the playoffs?

I see another embarrassment coming and no hope for a ring. And therein lies my impatience: the Jazz seem set on going forward with a lineup that gives them no chance. Could the young 4 do it? Not right away, but there is at least SOME hope that over time they could. So bring it on now. I am willing to have patience with that, but not with obvious continuous mediocrity.

Finally, Jazz history at this point = failure. No rings, no banners. So, what is so great about our history?
 
Thanks for posting, I appreciate most of what you said. I agree the Jazz are in a great position from a basketball managment perspective. But salary cap flexibility doesn't win games, and it doesn't sell the product to the fans. The Jazz are struggling to give the fans a player who they can identify as the face of the team: is it Paul or Al who are most likely leaving in July or is it Favors and Hayward who play 18 minutes a night off the bench and rarely down the stretch? I honestly don't know if I should be cheering Big Al or not, and if I cheer for what reason. The confusion has lead to fan apathy being the highest since maybe 2001-2002ish when it was clear S&M were done, and fans were ready for the new era to begin.

The Jazz recognized the problem in the last 2-3 weeks as the green seats brought more of a presence. But even as Dennis, Kevin and the other Jazz employees hit the airwaves and print media to preach patience, they still have not identified to the fans who the main players are. And as they suggest the future is the Core Four, it is not consistent with what I see Corbin doing on a nightly basis.

Love my Jazz, just a bit confused right now.

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Lion's Roar said:
* The left block post up that fans like to really go after Al for was once a staple of the Jazz offense with Malone working from there.
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1. Malone was much better than Al at scoring (.577 v. .531 career TS%) and passing (17.6 v. 8.8 career assist%) the basketball.

2. Oh...so you're the guy who used to glory in Portugal's history of subjugating foreign peoples.
 
mellow said:
The Jazz recognized the problem in the last 2-3 weeks as the green seats brought more of a presence. But even as Dennis, Kevin and the other Jazz employees hit the airwaves and print media to preach patience, they still have not identified to the fans who the main players are. And as they suggest the future is the Core Four, it is not consistent with what I see Corbin doing on a nightly basis.

Love my Jazz, just a bit confused right now.
Click to expand...

That's because they don't know themselves. I believe they are trying to figure this out more in practice than in the actual games. I believe the quick trigger of Corbin is to establish the correct rotations both offensively and defensively.
 
I appreciate your thoughts. But for me status quo shouldn't apply in basketball. You got to make a choice and the choice you make got to be the most logical and in long term the organization should gain the maximum favor from it. Thats why organizations got a management team to decide about how should we take our next step in certain conjuncture, thats what a succesful organization would do. And the conjuncture is always changing in basketball, there are lots of variable factor in it so you got the show reflexes to it and status quo would just holds you back. That's what i think.
 
Why is there any reverence for "Jazz history"? What have they done? I look in the list of champions and I do not see Utah Jazz listed.
 
GVC said:
1. Malone was much better than Al at scoring (.577 v. .531 career TS%) and passing (17.6 v. 8.8 career assist%) the basketball.
Click to expand...

What are you trying to say? That Malone was a better player than Al Jefferson? Yeah that's correct. Probably why Karl was given the ball more often than Al.

2. Oh...so you're the guy who used to glory in Portugal's history of subjugating foreign peoples.
Click to expand...

Not going to enter into much about this one unless you want to talk in another forum. But since you brought it up I am just going to say that Portugal had 1 Millions ppl in population and spread out to more than 50 countries. But to your knowledge because of the little population the Portuguese empire was established not trough annihilation of the indigenous ppl (like the Spanish and the English in America) but trough marriage and interbreeding with the natives. In fact most biracial mixes can be traced back to those times.
 
Using Stockton and Malone as a way to make a relevant basketball comparison is the same as using Hitler to make a relevant political comparison. Both of them automatically disqualify the point you're making.

And yes, I am aware of my signature. If you can't already understand the (fundamental) difference, I'm not going to help.
 
I don't believe that the fans on this board are not excited for the future of this team. In fact it is that we might be to excited and want to see it the team going in the direction of the future. I have also been on this forum for quite a while but don't say much and just listen. But with the way that this team has been coached, to me it doesn't look like we are going in the direction of the future and looks like Ty has no clue what he is doing.
The inconsistent lineups are what is killing me. You would think that 52 games into the season he would have some sort of consistency. There has been multiple times where the starters have dug a hole and the bench comes in to bring us back into it and he will then continue to put in what put us in the hole in the first place. This is why we lose a lot of the 4th quarters. Sorry for the rant but all the years that i have been a fan this year has been the most frustrating due to the coaching.
 
Lion's Roar said:
I was here during the Stockton and Malone days. I was here during the Deron/Boozer years and I'm still around altough mostly in the shadows and I'm not all that active anymore.
And who are the ones that talk the most? The ones that are against the Status Quo. I know that's the case. I WAS ONCE the one bickering at the FO and arguing about some decisions.
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Hi there, Lion's Roar. I appreciate and respect the knowledge and opinions of all fans who go back to Stockton&Malone. Ironically - I was once a staunch defender of the organization and front office but since last February my frustration (primarily with coaching and player development) has reach an alltime high and I can't defend things I truly believe are mistakes.

Lion's Roar said:
Hi First of all a refresh on Jazz history:
* Malone didn't start his first year. [1]
* Stockton didn't start till his 4th year. [1]
* S&M were ousted in the first round of the playoffs something like 5 times. [2]
* It took S&M 13 years to reach the Finals. [2]
* Even after playing 17 years together S&M only went to the WCF 5 times. [2]
* The left block post up that fans like to really go after Al for was once a staple of the Jazz offense with Malone working from there. [3]
* For many, MANY years the Jazz offense had little movement. There were no zone defenses allowed and the Jazz played the PnR on one side with the three other players (Eaton included) standing behind the 3 pt line on the other corner. (no one seemed to complain back then) [3]
* I've seen time and again fans going after Sloan and now they act like he was some sort of wizard and should be back and that Ty is so, so bad although his team keeps winning. [4]
.
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A couple disagreements w/your refresher in Jazz history.
[1]-Stockton didn't start as a rookie - but the only rookie on the Jazz is Kevin Murphy (whom I doubt anyone thinks should be starting). Favors & Hayward are 3rd-year players, Kanter & Burks 2nd-year players. I'm oldschool and do think rookies should learn the ropes to an extent and pay their dues. After that though - if you can play you should be playing.

[2]-Stockton & Malone set the bar in '88 when they took Magic&Kareem to 7 games in the Conf Semis. Right there, you knew they had the potential to compete at a championship level. Stock was 25, Malone 24 - and they were 2 of the best player's in the league. There's nobody in the Jazz starting lineup who leaves that type of impression - and certainly nobody you'd be willing to wait 13 years to deliver a finals appearance. The starting lineup is Mo Williams/RandyFoye/MarvinWilliams/Paul Millsap/AlJefferson. You can't possibly compare that to the early stages of Stockton & Malone.

[3] The Jazz offense had less movement in the early 90's (before Hornacek arrived) not only because the talent level around Stockton&Malone was poorer, but because the rules favored iso-ball. Illegal defenses encouraged 1-on-1 play and allowed Malone to be singled up on the block. If you fronted him it was a layup. Now teams can play in front of and behind Al and unless you can execute the high-low (Sap&Al can't) you have 4th-quarters like we saw against Chicago Friday night. And once the Jazz replaced JeffMalone w/Hornacek - the ball movement was on another level. Malone became one of the best low-post passers in the game as well. We didn't stand and watch, we cut down the lane, the guards would split, we kept moving which made double-teams alot harder and less effective.

[4]-I never understood why fans criticized Sloan (a much smaller minority than now) because he had a proven track record and system that we all knew worked. From Dick Motta to Jerry Sloan - it worked. Repetition of good habits = good. Repitition of something that's proven not to work = bad.
It's obvious someone can make anything good sound bad and anything bad sound good. I think some of the criticism is over-the-top but it is what it is. It's not like everyone has it wrong and they simply don't understand what good basketball is.

Bottom line for me is Utah began building for the future when they traded a top-12 NBA player - which I think was a potentially brilliant gamble. Two years later - they're marginalizing that entire trade under a bizarre "we want to win now" approach - and they're simply not good enough to win right now. Multiple seasons as a 7/8-seed w/out underlying growth is crippling in the NBA. (On a side note, I would argue many of our coaching decisions do not give Utah their best-chance to win but that's for another post). I agree there can and should be some balance in rebuilding between "tanking" and "trying to win" - but I think alot of fans would agree with me they're not seeing it right now.
 
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zman1527 said:
Why is there any reverence for "Jazz history"? What have they done? I look in the list of champions and I do not see Utah Jazz listed.
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Do you see the LA Clippers on that list? What about the Kings? Orlando and it's THREE #1 picks? Sometimes when you decide to go young and become really bad you only ensure that you're going to be bad for quite some time. Then you spend your time getting lottery picks to go and get Ekpe Udoh, Olowokandi, Jimmer, Darius Miles and the likes. This is uncharted territory that the Jazz are into. Let it play out. Just let it play out. Then I will join in the protests with you guys if the team fails badly. I'll probably be even more vocal then you guys.
 
Lion's Roar said:
Do you see the LA Clippers on that list? What about the Kings? Orlando and it's THREE #1 picks? Sometimes when you decide to go young and become really bad you only ensure that you're going to be bad for quite some time. Then you spend your time getting lottery picks to go and get Ekpe Udoh, Olowokandi, Jimmer, Darius Miles and the likes. This is uncharted territory that the Jazz are into. Let it play out. Just let it play out. Then I will join in the protests with you guys if the team fails badly. I'll probably be even more vocal then you guys.
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You did not answer the question at all. Why the reverence for Jazz history? In the final analysis, it is fail. Yes, other are worse but still, why revere what has failed? I think peeps overestimate the glory of the Sloan years. Had some great teams yes but in the end no ring. THAT should be the bottom line takeaway: what they did then did NOT work.
 
zman1527 said:
You did not answer the question at all. Why the reverence for Jazz history? In the final analysis, it is fail. Yes, other are worse but still, why revere what has failed? I think peeps overestimate the glory of the Sloan years. Had some great teams yes but in the end no ring. THAT should be the bottom line takeaway: what they did then did NOT work.
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There's no reverence. At least from my part. The Jazz are on uncharted territory cause the players they had here were quite older. We don't know what this kind of thought process will result into. And oddly we can argue either way simply cause there's no way to prove or disprove if sitting the C4 is helping or not.
 
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