The Official "Ask A Mormon" Thread

[Stifle Tower]

I'd be more inclined to agree with what you are saying if he was the only one to claim to have seen the plates. Since 11, on record, others have claimed to have seen the plates that lends weight to either it is true or it is some elaborate deception.

And as firmly as I believe in the LDS Church, I have no problem with those who hold to the opinion that Joeph and others came up with an elaborate ruse. In essence, that's the basis for one of the "Articles Of Faith" which Joseph penned as an outline as to what we believe:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

For those interested, I'll post a link to the 13 Articles of Faith. It's a good reference for those unfamiliar with LDS doctrine.

https://mormon.org/articles-of-faith/

 

[PearlWatson]

As for sirkicky's claim, yes, there were a few who were later excommunicated (and one who then returned to the Church). However, those men never denied seeing the plates.

FYI: The Wiki consensus article on The Three Witnesses claims 2 returned to the church.

 

[sirkickyass]

As far as I know (admittedly my knowledge is far from great in this area), none of them ever denied their testimony of having seen the plates. They left the church or were excommunicated for personal reasons other than this.
Even if they did deny having seen the plates, it wouldn't change my testimony of The Book of Mormon, as it is not based on what those three men said.

I do find it interesting that supposedly none of the witnesses changed their stance on the golden plates after being excommunicated.

I'm curious where the two of you got the idea that they never waffled on whether or not they'd actually seen the plates and an angel.

We'll start with Martin Harris. The dude was, in all honesty, kind of a loon. He was all over the map his entire life on what religion he belonged to (including a couple of LDS sects like the Strangites) and made a lot of statements that would today sound objectively crazy even to religious people about angelic visitations that happened to him and all the things in his life that were affected by demonic actions (basically every minor household inconvenience). During the early Palmyra years there are MANY accounts from several different and independent sources that Harris stated that he did not see the plates physically but with his "spiritual eye." In his late life he started denying ever having made these statements and said that he saw the plates physically. But, to be honest, there are just too many accounts of him denying it over too long a period of time (about 7-8 years) to take those late-life claims very seriously.

Harris' belief in the now-mainstream version of the church does not appear to have fully survived the assassination of Joseph Smith.

David Whitmer died having rejected the LDS church and its authority to claim the priesthood. In the early 1830s he stated that he didn't see the plates physically but instead with "an eye of faith." Whitmer's story as to how and when he saw the plates changes dramatically over time as well. At various points he appears to claim that he found the plates independently or happening to have seen other items (such as Laban's sword) independent of Joseph Smith.

Of the three Cowdery appears to have hewed closest to the original story. One always wonders what is in the purported Cowdery history of the church.

Not really, but I know what you're talking about. However, I think it's clear from their statements that they all considered themselves to have physically seen the plates. See here, for example, for some quotes from the three individuals: https://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/Spiritual_or_literal



True, or at least they all left the church (not certain excommunications were involved for all three). The unbeliever looks at that and says "Aha! They left the church! They must have been lying!" The believer looks at that and says, "Even though they left the church, they still didn't take back their statements. There must be something there! Plus: why the heck would Joseph Smith take the risk of excommunicating someone who was in on a conspiracy with him?"

All three were excommunicated. Harris in 1837. Cowdery and Whitmer in 1838. Really the whole period of 1837 to 1846 or so is a very tumultuous time for the church. It's astonishing the church survived it.

 

[Stifle Tower]

FYI: The Wiki consensus article on The Three Witnesses claims 2 returned to the church.

I stand corrected.

 

[Stoked]

And as firmly as I believe in the LDS Church, I have no problem with those who hold to the opinion that Joeph and others came up with an elaborate ruse. In essence, that's the basis for one of the "Articles Of Faith" which Joseph penned as an outline as to what we believe:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

For those interested, I'll post a link to the 13 Articles of Faith. It's a good reference for those unfamiliar with LDS doctrine.

https://mormon.org/articles-of-faith/

I believe it is true as well. I am just saying that with that many witnesses it lends weight either being true or a fraud and not soemthing that Smith thinks happened but didn't.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I believe it is true as well. I am just saying that with that many witnesses it lends weight either being true or a fraud and not soemthing that Smith thinks happened but didn't.

Joseph on mushrooms...I hadn't considered that. Maybe he too had an amazing technicolor dreamcoat!

 

[Batman]

Why are Mormons, for the most part, only white?

Actually, at this point i believe there are more non-white Mormons than White Mormons on a global scale

 

[CONAN]

I'm curious where the two of you got the idea that they never waffled on whether or not they'd actually seen the plates and an angel.

We'll start with Martin Harris. The dude was, in all honesty, kind of a loon. He was all over the map his entire life on what religion he belonged to (including a couple of LDS sects like the Strangites) and made a lot of statements that would today sound objectively crazy even to religious people about angelic visitations that happened to him and all the things in his life that were affected by demonic actions (basically every minor household inconvenience). During the early Palmyra years there are MANY accounts from several different and independent sources that Harris stated that he did not see the plates physically but with his "spiritual eye." In his late life he started denying ever having made these statements and said that he saw the plates physically. But, to be honest, there are just too many accounts of him denying it over too long a period of time (about 7-8 years) to take those late-life claims very seriously.

Harris' belief in the now-mainstream version of the church does not appear to have fully survived the assassination of Joseph Smith.

David Whitmer died having rejected the LDS church and its authority to claim the priesthood. In the early 1830s he stated that he didn't see the plates physically but instead with "an eye of faith." Whitmer's story as to how and when he saw the plates changes dramatically over time as well. At various points he appears to claim that he found the plates independently or happening to have seen other items (such as Laban's sword) independent of Joseph Smith.

Of the three Cowdery appears to have hewed closest to the original story. One always wonders what is in the purported Cowdery history of the church.

So 2 of the 3 changed their story a little on the plates but didn't completely deny it. Am I reading that right? And these guys were all a bit off when it came to their lives but you are going to pin them down on those statements?

 

[Stoked]

Actually, at this point i believe there are more non-white Mormons than White Mormons on a global scale

People in America think the LDS faith is a mostly Utah, mostly white faith and that is simply not the accurate story. More Mormons are in the US but outside Utah than in it and more outside the US than in it. The LDS church is very strong in Mexico, Phillipines, Samoa and Tonga.

 

[One Brow]

I'd be more inclined to agree with what you are saying if he was the only one to claim to have seen the plates. Since 11, on record, others have claimed to have seen the plates that lends weight to either it is true or it is some elaborate deception.

If Mormonism were the only religion that had this sort of witnessing, your point might be believable. However, some early Muslims supposedly witnessed Mohammed talking to Gabriel. I don't believe they were all in on a conspiracy, nor do I think Gabriel was there. Even today in the USA, people talk about how faith healers have helped them, sometimes even after their various tricks have been exposed. So, I see no reason to suspect conspiracy, even though I don't believe Smith was visited by angels.

 

[colton]

Where does the "millenium" come in?

Yes, I didn't mention any about Christ's Second Coming in my plan of salvation post. As I think many Christian groups do, LDS believe the millennium will begin at the Second Coming of Christ. He will come in glory to reign personally on the earth. This will be a 1000 year period of peace and righteousness. The time period occurs more or less congruently with the resurrection... some people will be resurrected at the start of the millennium whereas others will be resurrected later on. The millennium will conclude with the final casting out of Satan, and the final resurrections/judgments. Or at least, that's the typical LDS view of things.

 

[Stoked]

If Mormonism were the only religion that had this sort of witnessing, your point might be believable. However, some early Muslims supposedly witnessed Mohammed talking to Gabriel. I don't believe they were all in on a conspiracy, nor do I think Gabriel was there. Even today in the USA, people talk about how faith healers have helped them, sometimes even after their various tricks have been exposed. So, I see no reason to suspect conspiracy, even though I don't believe Smith was visited by angels.

The growth of the church shows it is believable.