So I want to talk about the Mormons

[Archie Moses]

It would never be used in court. Reasons like states rights, reducing drunk driving, under age drinking; these are the legal and philosophical reasons used to justify alcohol content. But we all know the real reason; because imbibing is against the WoW and therefor everyone in Utah must abide.

I get furious even typing that.

You got a lot of anger, bro. haha.

I still love you for giving me 5 bucks for a buy back in poker though.

 

[Archie Moses]

FWIW, and you probably won't understand this, but I'm active mormon, live in utah, and I feel the same. I would only add that in my experience it is not just Mormons in positions of power who look down on others.

That's the way I look at it too. I have to options I guess. Let it bug me/or not bug me and/or try and do something about it.

 

[Archie Moses]

No, you make a good point. But turn it around and ask yourself this:

Maybe peoples anger with the LDS church is a consequence of choosing to legislate morality.

That's people in the church, not the church, dude. Or am I wrong?

 

[One Brow]

I think it is different but that does not mean your insight is to be discarded because you are not LDS. Like you seem to think whites insights on racism are to be discarded.

I haven't said discarded. I've said they need to be evaluated in consideration of the insight-holder's position in society, and how that changes the context.

 

[Archie Moses]

Mostly that's just in response to Archie's "LDS settled Utah so deal with it" statement.

Is that really how I wrote it or how it came off? Because if so, that wasn't my intention.

 

[Archie Moses]

And for Archie, I know the LDS settled Utah, many of them were my ancestors (Kanab, in particular, I'm descended from the Young's and Heaton's who settled there). This is as much my place as it is anyone's. I feel that my say and my opinions are just as valid as LDS people's say and opinions, call me crazy.

I don't really care about the fact that alcohol is heavily controlled, I care about stupid meaningless laws that don't accomplish anything but aggravating people.

No one ever seems to like this analogy in the middle of a gun debate, let's see how it plays here:

Gun laws in places like NYC and California are like liquor laws in Utah. They're made by people who do not understand the item being regulated and who consider the item evil and unnecessary.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[MVP]

I don't know why this particular criticism bothers me so. I had a bad experience with someone many years ago with such a list, and I am still upset recalling it, and how disingenious he had been. I'm not saying you are disingenious, but would you do a small task to make sure you are asking a real question.

Take your list, then go back to your BoM. As you read the BoM and one of your list comes up, ask yourself if the context is one where the plant/animal is being described in the present context if so, is the story still in Jerusalem or the Journey through the wilderness before they enter the ship? If "yes" scratch the animal/plant from the list.

Next, check to see if the plant/animal is being used as part of a quotation from Isaiah, or other prophet who lived in the old world and is being quoted. If yes, scratch it from your list.

Now your list is much shorter, and is a genuine question that is worthy of contemplation.

Then do what Colton says with the rest of the list.

Ok, maybe I can scratch few animals of that list, does not change the fact that there is not a single one confirmed via archeological findings - thus it is fiction! Colton's explanation leaves me even more skeptical. Basically what he is saying ( and I assume you agree with him ), that Joseph Smith made incorrect translation while translating from golden plates. Since he "was helped by God" to do so, it means that God made those mistakes? There is numerous other fictional things which were never found to be true - I was just pointing to the obvious ones. The truth is the same, there was not a single evidence of Jewish people or their activities in 600 BC discovered in Americas which makes all this story a fiction.
All any person needs to do while reading books like that is to use your logic and skeptical analytical thinking to understand that it is just another creation of a man, not the word of God ( same as Quran, Bible, Old testament, you name it!). Sorry folks, I do not want to stir pot anymore here as I know none of you will ever change your beliefs - and that is fine. As long as it makes you happy and better person that all is good. I am out.

 

[colton]

Also, as I recall the story, at least much of the Book of Mormon was dictated by Smith, but written by others. Is that wrong?

All of it was. Smith sometimes spelled out names, but sometimes not. And there was no real punctuation initially; much of the punctuation was added by the printer and (I think) then edited by Smith and/or Smith's scribe.

 

[colton]

Colton's explanation leaves me even more skeptical. Basically what he is saying ( and I assume you agree with him ), that Joseph Smith made incorrect translation while translating from golden plates.

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that when people arrive in a new country and have no names for the new things, they generally use the names of things that they had "back home".

 

[BabyPeterzz]

All of it was. Smith sometimes spelled out names, but sometimes not. And there was no real punctuation initially; much of the punctuation was added by the printer and (I think) then edited by Smith and/or Smith's scribe.

I could never scribe a book for someone. I'd be way too tempted to slip in a few wangs and all kinds of sexual innuendo. I'm a weak man.

 

[babe]

Why do you feel the latter refutes the former? Are the skills needed to be a good con man essentially the same skills as those needed to competently manage finances?

While your questions are reflecting a fairly high level of discussion, I have to disclose my personal bias/family history. My wife is descended from Benjamin F. Johnson who was a close friend of Joseph Smith from his early youth, and was during the early twentieth century the last living person who had actually known the prophet Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith married two of Benjamin Johnson's sisters who were widowed and helped support their families to the extent he was able. Brother Ben shouldered the task when Joseph Smith was killed.

From the standpoint of people who actually knew Joseph Smith and had experience dealing with him in real life, the whole "con man" slur is just so far from credible it gets actually difficult to countenance the slur politely.

Joseph Smith always lived on the same level of "finance" as his followers. His house was open to any person in dire necessity, and he'd sleep on the floor so travel-weary or ailing folks could sleep on a bed.

con men by definition do what they do to rip off other people's means/money/stuff for their own use. Few will continue to try it if they can't profit from it. A lot of folks nowadays faced with court judgments will delay or avoid paying the judgments, some will take out bankruptcy. Joseph Smith continued to try to pay people who lost their money when his "bank" failed for the rest of his life.

 

[Stoked]

I haven't said discarded. I've said they need to be evaluated in consideration of the insight-holder's position in society, and how that changes the context.

The problem with this arguement is that it comes from you. You are the one that tried to minimize or discredit my views onr acism because I am white. I never tried to minimize or discredit your views on LDS persecution.

I am glad that you have opened your eyes to what I was saying. Makes me want to foolishly believe there is hope for you yet, haha.