Dennis Lindsey feels he owes Richard Jefferson a lot

[The Thriller]

It's nice to see hacks like GVC and Jedi come out of the woodwork to rationalize for the Jazz's directionless state. Some apologists will always be apologists.

Nothing more to see here folks. Just move on.

 

[gregbroncs]

Not the point. ANY agent will see how the Jazz treats their players, and will advise them accordingly.

So we are telling all agents that if you have a young talented player that is superior to the old vet they should not sign with Utah? But they are telling the old washed up vets that if they need somewhere to go where they will play Utah is a great destination?
.
And this is the message we want sent why?

 

[Jeditiger]

It's nice to see hacks like GVC and Jedi come out of the woodwork to rationalize for the Jazz's directionless state. Some apologists will always be apologists.

Nothing more to see here folks. Just move on.

Oh the irony. Thriller calling someone a hack.

To quote someone famous: "Grow up"

 

[fishonjazz]

So we are telling all agents that if you have a young talented player that is superior to the old vet they should not sign with Utah? But they are telling the old washed up vets that if they need somewhere to go where they will play Utah is a great destination?
.
And this is the message we want sent why?

Word up

 

[gregbroncs]

Because Ty isn't nearly as bad as the average Jazzfanz poster thinks. I've yet to see anyone construct a decent argument against franklin. I think vslice could, but he's not here anymore.

I'd like to see a valid justification for the minutes Vets get under Corbin. My main complaint with him is that he plays underserving older players whether they are better or not. I think the play of Favors this year has shown that he should not have been behind Millsap and Jefferson the last 2 years and that Dick Jefferson is not better than Burks or Kanter yet continues to play in front of them. This year it's more glaring as everybody knows Jefferson will not be back.

 

[The Thriller]

I'd like to see a valid justification for the minutes Vets get under Corbin. My main complaint with him is that he plays underserving older players whether they are better or not. I think the play of Favors this year has shown that he should not have been behind Millsap and Jefferson the last 2 years and that Dick Jefferson is not better than Burks or Kanter yet continues to play in front of them. This year it's more glaring as everybody knows Jefferson will not be back.

Nope! Sorry!

Corbin is COY and DL is the best GM in the league. The Jazz are awesome so stop questioning them. GVC and Jedi have never been wrong and know exactly what they are talking about. Remember how Jedi was one of the major proponents of the jazz making the playoffs to get their assets kicked by the spurs in 4? Wasn't that awesome? I'm sure picking around 8 or 9 instead of top 3 will be even more awesome!

 

[Jeditiger]

Look, Mr Thril guy. I don't know you. I don't know who you are. And quite frankly I don't give a ****. The truth is, your constant negativity, bitching, and sarcastic rhetoric bring absolutely nothing to the table. I don't wish to read any more of your trolling. Please refrain from responding to my posts or mentioning me in any way. Any further such posts will be reported for harassment.

Good day to you.

 

[The Thriller]

Look, Mr Thril guy. I don't know you. I don't know who you are. And quite frankly I don't give a ****. The truth is, your constant negativity, bitching, and sarcastic rhetoric bring absolutely nothing to the table. I don't wish to read any more of your trolling. Please refrain from responding to my posts or mentioning me in any way. Any further such posts will be reported for harassment.

Good day to you.

lol. Yep. Don't even try to refute arguments. Just rely on personal attacks. Typical

 

[Jeditiger]

Who started with personal attacks you piece of ****?

You're a douchebag. Pure and simple. I'm done with you.

 

[Ben10]

Who started with personal attacks you piece of ****?

You're a douchebag. Pure and simple. I'm done with you.

He is the only poster on this board that I have on ignore. I recommend you do the same. Its just not worth the headache it gives you to read his posts

 

[Jeditiger]

He is the only poster on this board that I have on ignore. I recommend you do the same. Its just not worth the headache it gives you to read his posts

Done. And well worth it. Highly recommended for the rest of the board users as well.

 

[Ben10]

vslice could use me as his whipping boy tho, that's sure enough.


Don't forget Ben10 -- easily top 3 smartest ball posters when inclined, if not best by a large margin.

I appreciate the complement Frank. Not sure if true or not but thanks. The reason I joined this board all those years ago was because there were so many basketball minded posters that would not only post there opinion but back it up with stats or examples. Its getting to the point were there is more whining and name calling than anything else and sometimes this board can be hard to read. I miss posters like vslice, Kenwood, Prodigy, and others that even though I might not agree with them they went out of there way to prove there point with real #'s or examples. GVC is still one of my favorite posters because he does that. I don't agree with him all the time, but I respect the time he puts into making a point instead of just throwing stuff out there then calling anyone who disagrees with him names.

 

[Hitman]

So we are telling all agents that if you have a young talented player that is superior to the old vet they should not sign with Utah? But they are telling the old washed up vets that if they need somewhere to go where they will play Utah is a great destination?
.
And this is the message we want sent why?

We haven't had "a young talented player that is superior to the old vet" - even Favors admitted he didn't deserve to play ahead of either Millsap or Al Jefferson, and he was closer to being a starter than either Kanter or Burks was. And has been pointed out already, Burks has been taking (as in "earning") minutes from the "old vets" as the season has progressed, and this year (unlike last year) his level of play has merited this. Kanter, on the other hand, has been poor most games.

Also, the anti-vet crowd is ignoring the fact we we gave both Biedrins and Rush a chance to produce on the court, but have benched them for their non-production, and thankfully JLIII has been given the hook in favor of Garrett. So it's not like being a vet is a golden ticket.

The message is we play players who deserve minutes, and we won't treat players like the Hornets treated Kaman after they traded for him, to use one example.

EDIT: Okay, it was just Millsap he mentioned specifically as being better than him:

After being dealt to Utah, Favors’ first thought was, “Utah. Wow.” Once he arrived in Utah, he quickly discovered that the Jazz had two veteran big men — Millsap and Jefferson — who led the team in scoring and minutes played. “It was frustrating at first,” he admitted. “Then I had to sit down and just realize that these two guys are good and I’ve just got to learn as much as I can from them, but it was frustrating at first.”

In 2011, Favors began the lockout-shortened season as the starting power forward ahead of Millsap. That, however, lasted two games before he returned to a reserve role that continued through the 2012-13 campaign. That meant more waiting for the young man hoping to win a championship and become an All-Star and Hall of Famer. On one hand, Favors understood. He even admitted, “I knew Paul was better than me.” But the Olympic team candidate and 2012 NBA “Rising Star” selection likes sitting on the bench about as much as he enjoyed the lower-back injury that left him feeling “mad as hell” and spoiled his Team USA scrimmage in Vegas last Thursday. “I was thankful and blessed to play behind (Millsap and Jefferson) because those two (were) great guys and I learned a lot from them, but I still use it as motivation. … I’m not going to let that happen to me again.”

Link to article

 

[The Thriller]

Done. And well worth it. Highly recommended for the rest of the board users as well.

You're right. We should all just mindlessly drink the Kool-aid. Like when you kept telling us that going to the playoffs as the 8th seed should be our priority rather than missing out on them for a higher pick. Seeing us lose in 4 against the Spurs was just awesome.

Constantly kissing Corbin's butt, making excuses for the franchise, and never adding anything to the discussion. Just cheerlead!

Sorry, but we have tried it your way. We have tried the bandaid solutions. Millsap, Harris, Mo, Jefferson, and Corbin. It wasn't all that great nor was it very fun.

So stop insulting the vast majority of jazz fans who support a tank and the selecting of a franchise player to lead this franchise back into relevance.

 

[Notes]

Constantly kissing Corbin's butt, making excuses for the franchise, and never adding anything to the discussion. Just cheerlead!

Nailed it. This thread is the most I've posted on this site, and it's blatantly evident that the Corbin apologists (GMC, Jedi, Franklin, etc) literally bring nothing to the table to back up their irrational defending of Corbin aside from personal attacks, derogatory remarks, belittling, and petty internet-tough-guy-isms.

 

[Jeditiger]

Nailed it. This thread is the most I've posted on this site, and it's blatantly evident that the Corbin apologists (GMC, Jedi, Franklin, etc) literally bring nothing to the table to back up their irrational defending of Corbin aside from personal attacks, derogatory remarks, belittling, and petty internet-tough-guy-isms.

So much wrong here. FTR it was the other guy who jumped in here with personal attacks, calling people hacks and apologists (which you have now also done, nice). I never attacked anyone except in response. I've always been willing to let his miserable douchebaggery go because he's clearly trolling. But people shouldn't be belittled as he was doing. People who want to have productive discussion don't start them that way. So, whatever.

 

[gregbroncs]

We haven't had "a young talented player that is superior to the old vet" - even Favors admitted he didn't deserve to play ahead of either Millsap or Al Jefferson, and he was closer to being a starter than either Kanter or Burks was. And has been pointed out already, Burks has been taking (as in "earning") minutes from the "old vets" as the season has progressed, and this year (unlike last year) his level of play has merited this. Kanter, on the other hand, has been poor most games.

Also, the anti-vet crowd is ignoring the fact we we gave both Biedrins and Rush a chance to produce on the court, but have benched them for their non-production, and thankfully JLIII has been given the hook in favor of Garrett. So it's not like being a vet is a golden ticket.

The message is we play players who deserve minutes, and we won't treat players like the Hornets treated Kaman after they traded for him, to use one example.

EDIT: Okay, it was just Millsap he mentioned specifically as being better than him:



Link to article

So you see no value in treating the players that are part of your future in a better way than the players that are leaving. Favors had to say that. It was the politically correct thing to say. Yet he produced on the court and was a part of the future while we were showcasing off those guys for their future at the expense of ours. Also I still maintain that Favors was better than them. Are you going to tell me that CJ, Howard, and Bell were better than Hayward? How about Beidrens better than Gobert? Foye better than Burks? So much better than he deserved **** loads of minutes.
.
Last night Jefferson got more minutes than Burks, Favors, Marvin, Burke and Kanter. Can you honestly make an argument that he is better than any of those players? Can you come up with a legitimate reason why he should ever play more than Favors with Favors not in foul trouble?
.
Furthermore this year is not about wins but about development. So while Jefferson is not better than players he is playing instead of he is also not part of the future. Please give me a reasonable explanation why he is playing so damn much. Keep in mind a lot of the Corbin detractors predicted this would happen in the off season and were laughed at as being unreasonable. That there is no way Jefferson is going to get minutes over those guys in a year in which we are not trying to win just develop and get better. I was one of the ones saying that not even Corbin is that stupid. I'll admit I was wrong about that he is apparently that stupid.

 

[GVC]

Then we shall take the fight to him!


J/k I have too much respect to clutter up his page, even if it would generate traffic. vslice could use me as his whipping boy tho, that's sure enough.

I've been spending a lot less time on jazzfanz, and I suspect that trend will continue. A lot of the time, I present counterarguments to challenge the status quo and spark a decent discussion. Unfortunately, there are very few posters currently on jazzfanz who can handle challenges to the status quo or engage in an intelligent conversation. They treat opinions as fact and facts as opinion.

In particular, I don't consider myself a Ty Corbin fan. I do think it's worth considering the context surrounding his decisions (how many coaches play young players ahead of productive in-prime vets? Is Corbin developing as a coach? What's a reasonable amount of time to give a coach to develop? What is the relative importance of playing time, role, fit in a lineup, etc. in the development of young talent?). As I've stated repeatedly, I don't yet grasp the nuances of NBA offenses or defenses. In the past there were posters who could actually answer some of the questions/challenges I posed (vslice, billyshelby, others) and help me better understand the game. Take a look at the posts by The Thriller and Notes in this thread to see what this site has become. Angry and stupid. Oh well.

vslice isn't a Corbin fan. Some of the reasons are the same as those of posters on this site (hell, I thought Kanter was deserving of some of Al's minutes last season, and think some of RJ's minutes should be Burks' this season...). The difference is that he can back up his opinions with a good basketball argument. I especially like his blog post from December 14th (after the Jazz beat Denver), which details how the Jazz have altered how they use Favors in pick-and-roll defense. Essentially, he thinks Ty made the appropriate adjustment, but is concerned with Ty's inability to make those adjustments quickly enough. That is, if it takes a coach 20 games to make what should be a pretty simple and obvious adjustment (for a professional coach), that coach probably isn't going to make adjustments quickly enough to compete against quicker, more intelligent coaches.

Here's the last portion of that entry:

The Jazz have played good basketball in a large portion of their last 8 games – showing some encouraging improvement at both ends of the court. Offensively much of that improvement is due to the return of Trey Burke – who now gives Utah a playmaker at point guard that makes the game easier for all of his teammates.

Defensively, the adjustment in defending the pick&roll is a welcomed change but before we go give Ty Corbin a medal – let’s remember coaching isn’t simply figuring out one defensive tactic and then calling it a day. It’s about constant adjustments.


Look at how Greg Popovich has altered the Spurs’ identity from a post-up/kick-out to 3pt-shooters team in his 1998-99 championship team that had virtually no perimeter playmakers – to a more versatile inside-outside team in the mid-2000′s to today’s masterpiece that is a hallmark for the modern-day perimeter-oriented motion/screen-roll/floor-spacing/3pt-shooting ensemble many teams are trying to perfect.


Furthermore, look at Utah’s franchise where Jerry Sloan altered his system from the Stockton&Malone offense to fit the talents of the 2003-04 talent-devoid team and then back to more of the Stockton&Malone system with many tweaks to better suit the Deron/Boozer teams.


Each year coaches have a different team with players possessing different strengths and weaknesses. Taking 20 games (which is generous given you could argue it’s closer to 1-2 seasons) too long to adjust something obvious like pick&roll defense (that also includes flawed initial thinking) is certainly less than ideal for a professional basketball coach. Where 1 game can determine homecourt advantage, 5 games playoff potential and 10 games between meaningful basketball in March/April – perhaps the only thing saving Corbin now is Utah’s horrid start put them in such an embarrassing hole that low expectations have since plummeted to absurd levels where a single win regardless of opponent is now being hailed as a phenomenal coaching achievement.


To his credit, Corbin has adjusted Utah’s offense from the predominant low-post (Al-fense) centered around Al Jefferson to more of a versatile screen-roll system (which also magnifies the lack of diversity in last year’s strategy and foresight). He’s doing a better job utilizing timeouts to stop the flow and break offensive/defensive lulls and is being a little more creative with is lineups and rotations. Last night I thought he was smart to leave Jeremy Evans in until about the 4-min mark of the 4th-Qtr which gave Utah a nice lift on the boards.


If you thought Ty was a good coach from the beginning then you’re probably overjoyed (or stumbling around blindly – just kidding but not really) after the past couple games. If you thought he’s been a poor coach for much of his first 2 1/2 seasons then the start to this season probably has cemented that belief. If you were on the fence, it’s unlikely a 2-game win streak or the recent 4-game slide set amidst the backdrop of a 6-19 season is enough to sway you either way. As of today, Ty Corbin is still a lame duck coach without a contract extending past this season – and I think that fact speaks loudest of all.

LINK

 

[franklin]

Gregbroncs, are you still crying about raw rookies not getting playing time they didn't deserve? How much longer until you move on? SMH @ this soccer mom mentality

 

[HeavenHarris]

wat u know bout dem soccer milfs franklin bro?