Dennis Lindsey feels he owes Richard Jefferson a lot

[Jeditiger]

Okay then. What is the reasonable explanation for Jefferson's minutes?

I think GVC laid it out pretty well. I would also say that I think it is likely that when the Jazz brought in RJ they told him that if he worked hard and played decently (and he has, arguably) in a mentoring role that he would get PT, and maybe they could trade him to a playoff contender this season. To even have him mentioned in the Bynum deal has to be huge.

 

[GVC]

Jefferson is 3rd on our team in minutes.
16th (out of 17) in +/-
9th on the team in PER.(out of 15)
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He has a lower per than all of Marvin, Favors, Kanter, Hayward, Burke, Burks, Evans and even Harris.
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So I'd like for Franklin, GVC or any other defender's of Corbin to give me an argument using whatever stats you'd like to justify Jefferson's minutes. Again this is my biggest problem with Corbin. His loyalty to vets.

As previously stated, Ty is now using only 3 players on the wing (although we're only 3 games into the 3-man wing rotation). Ty's trying to keep players' roles fairly consistent/simple (that is, he's not going to play Marvin at a big slot and a wing slot). The 3 players who make the most sense in those 3 slots are Gordo, Alec and RJ. They're all going to get minutes. In those 3 games, Gordo is averaging 36 minutes, RJ is averaging 33 minutes and Alec is averaging 27 minutes. I'd like RJ's and Alec's minutes to be flipped (while still bringing Alec off the bench).

PER is a terrible measure for players being used almost exclusively as off-ball players. RJ's job is to knock down open 3s and defend. He's shooting 42% from 3 this season. His defense has been bad (IMO), although he does provide a little extra size, allowing Gordo to slide to the 2, where he's a much better defender (this may be the biggest reason Alec doesn't get more of RJ's minutes: Even with the bulk he added this offseason, Gordo isn't that great defending physical wings one-on-one). Dude competes pretty consistently, and (arguably) provides veteran leadership/composure as well.

It's probably also worth pointing out that RJ is 4th in minutes per game, averaging about the same minutes as Alec so far. Given his role, his performance within that role, and the dearth of other options to fill that role (especially considering both Gordo and Alec are better defending the 2), it makes sense that RJ is getting minutes. Alec has done a pretty damn good job on catch-and-shoot jumpers though, which is absolutely HUGE if he's going to play with Trey and Gordo, so maybe he'll get more minutes as the season progresses.

 

[GVC]

The problem with Jefferson as a 3rd wing is that he is getting the minutes of the 2nd wing.

He and Burks are getting roughly the same minutes this season. Gordo and Burks are better defending the 2, RJ is better defending the 3 (a little extra size/physicality).

Corbin is trying to keep players' roles simple, so it's unlikely we see Marvin playing much at the 3. There's definitely a trade-off there, and reasonable people can disagree on the relative value of giving players consistent, well-defined roles v. allocating minutes to maximize on-court talent. I personally like Marvin at the 4, and would like that to continue. I'd like to see Gordo more at the 3 with Alec though. I'd be pleased if RJ's and Alec's minutes from the last 3 games were swapped (Gordo with 36, Alec with 33, RJ with 27).

It's probably also worth pointing out that getting between 24 and 32 minutes isn't a disaster, especially since Alec is still getting plenty of opportunity with the ball in his hands leading the second unit (he's getting more than twice as much time of possession per game than RJ) AND ample opportunity off-ball with Trey and Gordo (he's averaging 9.2 minutes per game playing with those 2) closing games.

 

[gregbroncs]

He and Burks are getting roughly the same minutes this season. Gordo and Burks are better defending the 2, RJ is better defending the 3 (a little extra size/physicality).

Corbin is trying to keep players' roles simple, so it's unlikely we see Marvin playing much at the 3. There's definitely a trade-off there, and reasonable people can disagree on the relative value of giving players consistent, well-defined roles v. allocating minutes to maximize on-court talent. I personally like Marvin at the 4, and would like that to continue. I'd like to see Gordo more at the 3 with Alec though. I'd be pleased if RJ's and Alec's minutes from the last 3 games were swapped (Gordo with 36, Alec with 33, RJ with 27)
It's probably also worth pointing out that getting between 24 and 32 minutes isn't a disaster, especially since Alec is still getting plenty of opportunity with the ball in his hands leading the second unit AND ample opportunity off-ball with Trey and Gordo closing games.

Thank you. I still disagree a bit but it is a reasonable explanation. My real problem is not with Burks' minutes and role (though I think he deserves more of Jefferson's time) but with the minutes of Kanter. I believe Kanter should be getting minutes at Jefferson's expense.
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I also like Marvin at the 4 but think he is also better than Jefferson at the 3 which solves some of the size issues you have with Burks and Hayward at 3. I don't understand the reason to pigeon hole players as one position only. Marvin has played SF during his career and should be able to contribute there. Honestly with the excess of bigs we have I'd not even mind seeing Marvin as exclusively a 3 over Jefferson. I think Jefferson's future with the team and lack of my perceived contribution on the court would justify him losing a lot of his minutes.
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I went through and looked at OPPP and DPPP and Jefferson is the worst of the 3 wings in that category and worse by a long ways than Marvin. Though Marvin has not really played any time at SF so hard to compare there. I also realize this is a team oriented stat but was looking for a comparison. I'm also not sure that 82 games has been updated lately so don't know how accurate the stats I looked at are.

 

[franklin]

Jefferson is 3rd on our team in minutes.
16th (out of 17) in +/-
9th on the team in PER.(out of 15)
.
He has a lower per than all of Marvin, Favors, Kanter, Hayward, Burke, Burks, Evans and even Harris.
.
So I'd like for Franklin, GVC or any other defender's of Corbin to give me an argument using whatever stats you'd like to justify Jefferson's minutes. Again this is my biggest problem with Corbin. His loyalty to vets.

Al Jefferson was league top 10 in PER last year. By your logic, we should have signed him to a max contract.


Corbin love teh vets is a straw man invented by soccer moms who think their child is better than he is. It's been debunked enough already. Corbin is in love with whoever plays best.

 

[franklin]

I guess I just don't see the harm in letting burks start a game or two over a three year span and this year especially.

I know that you guys have all the stats and reasoning of why it wouldn't work but I would just like to see the core 5 start a couple games together and see what happens

Burks has been taking minutes from Jefferson and will likely earn more. I don't see him as ever becoming a 36 mpg player, but expect him to pick up more minutes than he's playing right now. He's [finally] better than Jefferson and Corbin is rewarding him accordingly.

 

[GVC]

I don't understand the reason to pigeon hole players as one position only.

This is a young team, just learning how to play together, playing against the best players in the world, most of whom have a lot more experience within their individual roles and with their teammates. I'd guess it's easier for players to be successful and grow if both they and those they play with have consistent, well-defined roles. Gordo, Trey, Favors, Alec and Kanter are all being used in lead roles on this team. It's probably best to start simple, and introduce complexity as they get more comfortable/confident/effective in their roles and with their teammates.

My real problem is not with Burks' minutes and role (though I think he deserves more of Jefferson's time) but with the minutes of Kanter. I believe Kanter should be getting minutes at Jefferson's expense...Honestly with the excess of bigs we have I'd not even mind seeing Marvin as exclusively a 3 over Jefferson.

Kanter has been his own worst enemy this season. He and Favors struggled playing together to start, and Enes was clearly still affected mentally and physically by his shoulder injury. When Marvin came back, Corbin tried playing him at the 4, and it worked. Even playing with Trey, the Kanter-Favors combo has been pretty ****ing bad (-18.8 per 48 minutes...oof). Also, if you move Marvin into RJ's spot as the big wing, you're putting a lot more pressure on Jeremy and Kanter to spread the floor and defend stretch 4s. Jeremy's play has been declining for a while now, and it's unlikely he'll never be more than a mediocre 4th big (if that). If you give some of the big man minutes to Gobert, you have the same problem defending stretch 4s, and probably aren't hurting opposing teams on offense enough to make it worthwhile. If RJ is moved for non-rotation players, however, I think moving Marvin into RJ's role and increasing Kanter's minutes is probably the bets move (unless Brandon Rush makes huge strides).


FWIW, Alec has probably been given the most challenging and diverse role on the team. He's being used on-ball as the leader of the second unit, and being counted on as a complementary player to close games with Trey and Gordo (splitting this role with RJ). I think it's a testament to how much confidence Ty has in Alec's abilities.

 

[GVC]

Burks has been taking minutes from Jefferson and will likely earn more. I don't see him as ever becoming a 36 mpg player, but expect him to pick up more minutes than he's playing right now. He's [finally] better than Jefferson and Corbin is rewarding him accordingly.

If he continues to consistently knock down corner 3s at a decent clip, he could conceivably develop into a very good or elite 6th man, and play 28+ minutes per game on a really good team. That's pretty damn good for the 12th pick in a mediocre/poor draft.

 

[One Brow]

You're right, let's just keep quiet and let it be.

How about when a person asks a rhetorical question, and then spends three paragraphs showing why the question is ill-founded, you actually address the ideas in the post, instead of pretending the question was real.

 

[b_line]

How about when a person asks a rhetorical question, and then spends three paragraphs showing why the question is ill-founded, you actually address the ideas in the post, instead of pretending the question was real.

oh, Eric, ain't nobody got time fo dat.

 

[One Brow]

So we are telling all agents that if you have a young talented player that is superior to the old vet they should not sign with Utah? But they are telling the old washed up vets that if they need somewhere to go where they will play Utah is a great destination?
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And this is the message we want sent why?

How many of these talented young players have a choice in whom they play for? Are you referring to D-League stars like Ian Clark? You're right, we'll never sign someone like that.

 

[gregbroncs]

Al Jefferson was league top 10 in PER last year. By your logic, we should have signed him to a max contract.


Corbin love teh vets is a straw man invented by soccer moms who think their child is better than he is. It's been debunked enough already. Corbin is in love with whoever plays best.

All the stats I can find show badly for Richard Jefferson. Just like they did with CJ, Bell, and Howard. It's not a one time thing with Jefferson it's a trend.
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Al was a terrible defender (so is Richard) but the per showed that on offense he's a pretty good player. Richard is a terrible defender and the per show that he's no better on offense. His PPP both offensively and defensively make him worse than Hayward, Burks and Marvin. His +/- is 2nd worst on the team. His Pts/***/Blocks/steals and rebounds are not great. Yet he's 4th on the team in MPG. A guy that WON'T be back.
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So besides your faithful trolling for Corbin what is your justification for his playing time? I get GVC's arguments, though I still disagree with a lot of them. But I'm still waiting for some stats to back up his PT. For somebody famous for bitching about trolling you sure do more of it than anybody else on the site. Care to bring something to back up your argument or are you all based on what you see and feel. The very thing being pointed out that the Corbin supporters do.
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Even GVC a guy that relies on stats and is great at using them to back up his arguments has not brought any to counter my arguments in this thread (brought good arguments and info just no stats). You call per horrible, great I used more than that. Care to counter it with a stat you like more?

 

[oldtimer]

As previously stated, Ty is now using only 3 players on the wing (although we're only 3 games into the 3-man wing rotation). Ty's trying to keep players' roles fairly consistent/simple (that is, he's not going to play Marvin at a big slot and a wing slot). The 3 players who make the most sense in those 3 slots are Gordo, Alec and RJ. They're all going to get minutes. In those 3 games, Gordo is averaging 36 minutes, RJ is averaging 33 minutes and Alec is averaging 27 minutes. I'd like RJ's and Alec's minutes to be flipped (while still bringing Alec off the bench).

PER is a terrible measure for players being used almost exclusively as off-ball players. RJ's job is to knock down open 3s and defend. He's shooting 42% from 3 this season. His defense has been bad (IMO), although he does provide a little extra size, allowing Gordo to slide to the 2, where he's a much better defender (this may be the biggest reason Alec doesn't get more of RJ's minutes: Even with the bulk he added this offseason, Gordo isn't that great defending physical wings one-on-one). Dude competes pretty consistently, and (arguably) provides veteran leadership/composure as well.

It's probably also worth pointing out that RJ is 4th in minutes per game, averaging about the same minutes as Alec so far. Given his role, his performance within that role, and the dearth of other options to fill that role (especially considering both Gordo and Alec are better defending the 2), it makes sense that RJ is getting minutes. Alec has done a pretty damn good job on catch-and-shoot jumpers though, which is absolutely HUGE if he's going to play with Trey and Gordo, so maybe he'll get more minutes as the season progresses.

You make interesting points, but at this point there is nothing you can say to convince me that giving Jefferson or Williams more than 20 minutes a game is in the best interest of the Jazz. Kanter and Burks have both been beasting lately and deserve more minutes than they are receiving. I'd like to see all the young core guys getting 35 minutes a game. If the young guys are getting that much time and we win I will be happy. I will at least know that we have the talent to win next year and beyond. If they don't win we get a better pick.

 

[gregbroncs]

Burks has been taking minutes from Jefferson and will likely earn more. I don't see him as ever becoming a 36 mpg player, but expect him to pick up more minutes than he's playing right now. He's [finally] better than Jefferson and Corbin is rewarding him accordingly.

He's rewarding him with less minutes than a player you just admitted he's better than. Isn't that my whole argument against Corbin? That he does not play the better players if they are younger.

 

[GVC]

I'd like to see all the young core guys getting 35 minutes a game.

There are only 31 players in the entire NBA who average 35+ minutes per game. Having 5 such players on a single team is incredibly unrealistic.

...there is nothing you can say to convince me...

Then why get involved in a discussion?

 

[GVC]

I get GVC's arguments, though I still disagree with a lot of them. But I'm still waiting for some stats to back up his PT...Even GVC a guy that relies on stats and is great at using them to back up his arguments has not brought any to counter my arguments in this thread (brought good arguments and info just no stats). You call per horrible, great I used more than that. Care to counter it with a stat you like more?

I have used "stats" in this and other threads on similar topics. Unfortunately, there aren't appropriate stats (that allow for something approaching even half baked counterfactual analysis) for many of my arguments.

1. Jefferson is shooting 42% from 3, being used as a spot-up shooter, complementing Trey and Gordo in the starting lineup. His eFG% on catch and shoot opportunities is .568 (slightly above the median among players with 3.5+ catch and shoot attempts per game). The counterargument is that Alec has been even better on catch and shoots, although I agree that that Alec should be playing more and RJ less.

2. Currently, the only other viable option on the wing is Marvin. Moving Marvin to the 3 forces Kanter and Favors to play together more. Team performance when Favors and Kanter play together has been an unmitigated disaster, including when the two share the court with Trey (-18.8 per 48, as previously stated). Yes, RJ's +/- is second worst among Jazz regulars. Enes's is worse.

3. It's hard to evaluate how much better/worse the team would be with Gordo playing more minutes at the 3, as he's played the bulk of his minutes at the 2 (this applies to defense, which is notoriously difficult to measure). If I had all the lineup data, including opponents and game situation/score, for Gordo/Alec and Gordo/RJ, maybe we could make a rough evaluation. I don't though.

4. How does one measure development based on how simple the coach makes players' roles?

 

[franklin]

All the stats I can find show badly for Richard Jefferson. Just like they did with CJ, Bell, and Howard. It's not a one time thing with Jefferson it's a trend.
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Al was a terrible defender (so is Richard) but the per showed that on offense he's a pretty good player. Richard is a terrible defender and the per show that he's no better on offense. His PPP both offensively and defensively make him worse than Hayward, Burks and Marvin. His +/- is 2nd worst on the team. His Pts/***/Blocks/steals and rebounds are not great. Yet he's 4th on the team in MPG. A guy that WON'T be back.
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So besides your faithful trolling for Corbin what is your justification for his playing time? I get GVC's arguments, though I still disagree with a lot of them. But I'm still waiting for some stats to back up his PT. For somebody famous for bitching about trolling you sure do more of it than anybody else on the site. Care to bring something to back up your argument or are you all based on what you see and feel. The very thing being pointed out that the Corbin supporters do.
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Even GVC a guy that relies on stats and is great at using them to back up his arguments has not brought any to counter my arguments in this thread (brought good arguments and info just no stats). You call per horrible, great I used more than that. Care to counter it with a stat you like more?

I've stated repeatedly and clearly that Burks is the better player and will take more minutes from RJ. I don't know what you're even arguing at this point. Seems like you're taking issue with early season minute consumption and justifying your hate with full season averages???

Also, Jefferson is the statistically better offensive player by ORTG, even in DRTG despite your claim to the opposite, a much better 3 point shooter, and superior by far in ts%. I still prefer Alec Burks over RJ despite this statistical proof that Jefferson is better for winning games. I don't know what more you wish to gain from your demands.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

There are only 31 players in the entire NBA who average 35+ minutes per game. Having 5 such players on a single team is incredibly unrealistic.

Then why get involved in a discussion?

You think we're all here because we want you to convince us of something?

 

[candrew]

I've stated repeatedly and clearly that Burks is the better player and will take more minutes from RJ. I don't know what you're even arguing at this point. Seems like you're taking issue with early season minute consumption and justifying your hate with full season averages???
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For one thing Burks sat on the bench last might while Jefferson finished the game. The counter arguement that Jefferson was having a better game is meaningless to the folks thst recognize that Jefferson won't be here next year - he may not even be here next month.

 

[GVC]

You think we're all here because we want you to convince us of something?

Not me in particular. If you've already made up your mind, and refuse to even consider other points of view, what's the point of talking about something? Are people really that desperate for a pat on the back?