Dennis Lindsey feels he owes Richard Jefferson a lot

[fishonjazz]

wat u know bout dem soccer milfs franklin bro?

These are the types of posts I need to just stick with from now on.

There was a time when we could actually talk about what we are seeing on the court but now it seems that if I say that I don't like jefferson getting more minutes than burks or something then someone will tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about and throw some stats at me to show me that corbin is making the right decisions each and everytime in every game rather than actually considering what I have to say might have some validity. (Same goes for kanter)

 

[HeavenHarris]

HH been on da #FreeBurks bandwagon since day 1 tbh

 

[franklin]

I've been spending a lot less time on jazzfanz, and I suspect that trend will continue. A lot of the time, I present counterarguments to challenge the status quo and spark a decent discussion. Unfortunately, there are very few posters currently on jazzfanz who can handle challenges to the status quo or engage in an intelligent conversation. They treat opinions as fact and facts as opinion.

In particular, I don't consider myself a Ty Corbin fan. I do think it's worth considering the context surrounding his decisions (how many coaches play young players ahead of productive in-prime vets? Is Corbin developing as a coach? What's a reasonable amount of time to give a coach to develop? What is the relative importance of playing time, role, fit in a lineup, etc. in the development of young talent?). As I've stated repeatedly, I don't yet grasp the nuances of NBA offenses or defenses. In the past there were posters who could actually answer some of the questions/challenges I posed (vslice, billyshelby, others) and help me better understand the game. Take a look at the posts by The Thriller and Notes in this thread to see what this site has become. Angry and stupid. Oh well.

vslice isn't a Corbin fan. Some of the reasons are the same as those of posters on this site (hell, I thought Kanter was deserving of some of Al's minutes last season, and think some of RJ's minutes should be Burks' this season...). The difference is that he can back up his opinions with a good basketball argument. I especially like his blog post from December 14th (after the Jazz beat Denver), which details how the Jazz have altered how they use Favors in pick-and-roll defense. Essentially, he thinks Ty made the appropriate adjustment, but is concerned with Ty's inability to make those adjustments quickly enough. That is, if it takes a coach 20 games to make what should be a pretty simple and obvious adjustment (for a professional coach), that coach probably isn't going to make adjustments quickly enough to compete against quicker, more intelligent coaches.

Here's the last portion of that entry:



LINK

I've read a lot of the guy's site and frankly it's a bunch of long winded cherry picking stabs at Corbin. He didn't say anything in the paragraphs you linked, other than claiming Corbin didn't change pnr quick enough from one unspecified to another unspecified approach (I'd guess his beef was flashing, but doesn't acknowledge that when Tinsley/JLIII are your defending pg's you have no chance defending the pnr with other styles). The rambling appeal to authorities' offenses given in the middle of a critique of Corbin's defensive adjustments, and followed by slamming Corbin for bending his offense to his talent right after crediting Sloan and Pop.... It's all thinly veiled Corbin hate. But yeah, he can pick out a play when he wants to.

He had a post a few weeks back pointing out the double pin down loop, then claimed the Jazz don't use it anymore. This, of course, is nonsense. He also failed to note how Corbin has modified the play for the talent on court and is getting more paint and 3 out of it by swinging the weakside man up top instead of crossing underneath.

There's plenty to miss seeing on court when you start with an agenda of proving you know more than Coach, and watching games with baited breath like the political hacks do.

 

[franklin]

These are the types of posts I need to just stick with from now on.

There was a time when we could actually talk about what we are seeing on the court but now it seems that if I say that I don't like jefferson getting more minutes than burks or something then someone will tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about and throw some stats at me to show me that corbin is making the right decisions each and everytime in every game rather than actually considering what I have to say might have some validity. (Same goes for kanter)

Crying wolf?

What do you expect when you post like a robot? Also, don't think your heavy GVC trolling has gone unnoticed by others.

 

[fishonjazz]

Crying wolf?

What do you expect when you post like a robot? Also, don't think your heavy GVC trolling has gone unnoticed by others.

Just sayin its goes both ways..... gvc and yourself claim that a lot of poster just post the same old stuff robitically against corbin which is pretty true, but I never see you or gvc bend on your stance in a discussion no matter what the other side presents.

 

[GVC]

I've read a lot of the guy's site and frankly it's a bunch of long winded cherry picking stabs at Corbin. He didn't say anything in the paragraphs you linked, other than claiming Corbin didn't change pnr quick enough from one unspecified to another unspecified approach.

The paragraphs quoted summarize his points. The whole post includes both pictures and video, with the defensive strategies clearly specified. Basically, you're always better off having Favors drop on the pick-and-roll, allowing your wing players to stay home more, Favors to challenge more shots at the rim, while giving up mid-range jumpers to the guard initiating the play than having Favors try to recover from 25 feet out, which often resulted in layups and open corner 3s. I think it's pretty compelling. Favors is very good at taking up space, and making life difficult for both the guard and the roll man when he's in the paint.

I agree to a point that he doesn't always consider counterarguments about youth development, minutes or lineup choices (or about the actual talent level of the young players on the team), although to his credit he does notice improvements in Ty's use of timeouts, lineups and talent-specific strategy. It's too bad he's been driven away from this site (is he on some other Jazz message board I don;t know about?), as message boards seem to be better for discussion than blogs (at their best, anyway).

 

[GVC]

but I never see you or gvc bend on your stance in a discussion no matter what the other side presents.

Because they don't present anything. The whole argument is "the young guys should all play 35+ minutes, nothing else matters, the end". How do you have a discussion with that?

 

[Coach Ellis]

I've been a football coach for 15 years and I'll readily admit that I understand the nuances of that sport better than I do basketball. But I also know that there's fundamental aspects of coaching that are universal. Not every coach is capable of teaching players and/or putting them in the right position to succeed. Some have it. Some don't.

I had a team that I coached years ago that had an even split of young players and older (veteran) players. I advocated at the time that we needed to play several of the younger players more because they had more talent. We did, and it took us the whole season to figure out what they were best at, where they should be playing and how well they fit together. It was a tough season for us. We went 3-3-1 and missed the playoffs. But they got valuable experience AND we learned more about them and their strengths. The next season, that same group of boys came back as leaders for our team. We added players to compliment them, made changes to our offense and defense to match their strengths and they played with chemistry, intelligence and confidence that they didn't have the year before. They went undefeated that next season. A perfect 10-0, and scored more TDs than the rest of our league combined.

That first year was difficult, because we knew we had the talent but they needed to take their lumps and gain the experience on the field to be able to dominate how they did the following season. They learned from playing, from competing every game and (yes) from losing. All of those things helped them to be better players and a better team. Right now, how I felt about that young group of boys is exactly how I feel about our Utah Jazz. This is a good year to take your lumps and learn as much as you can about this team and these players. I believe that really committing to that process will be painful and hard to stomach at times. And then there's other times that they will totally validate your faith in them. Those moments are what you build on for the future.

 

[franklin]

Just sayin its goes both ways..... gvc and yourself claim that a lot of poster just post the same old stuff robitically against corbin which is pretty true, but I never see you or gvc bend on your stance in a discussion no matter what the other side presents.

Yes you do. You've made this claim several times and asked where I think Corbin can improve. I've responded to each one.

The paragraphs quoted summarize his points. The whole post includes both pictures and video, with the defensive strategies clearly specified. Basically, you're always better off having Favors drop on the pick-and-roll, allowing your wing players to stay home more, Favors to challenge more shots at the rim, while giving up mid-range jumpers to the guard initiating the play than having Favors try to recover from 25 feet out, which often resulted in layups and open corner 3s. I think it's pretty compelling. Favors is very good at taking up space, and making life difficult for both the guard and the roll man when he's in the paint.

I agree to a point that he doesn't always consider counterarguments about youth development, minutes or lineup choices (or about the actual talent level of the young players on the team), although to his credit he does notice improvements in Ty's use of timeouts, lineups and talent-specific strategy. It's too bad he's been driven away from this site (is he on some other Jazz message board I don;t know about?), as message boards seem to be better for discussion than blogs (at their best, anyway).

I more or less agree with him on this pnr strategy and have posted the same here several times. I'm just trying to goad him into logging in.

That old flashing pnr defense isn't necessarily wrong, but the way both Jefferson and Favors do it is a legitimate concern about Corbin's teaching. I call it the Jefferson double screen because he (and Favors) screen their own guy. There are pictures on this in my "Playbook" thread.

 

[franklin]

Also, anyone who cares about those sorts of details should watch how Miami defends the pnr by sending 3 guys. It's a pretty interesting strategy, but of course few other teams have the luxury of an LBJ being able to recover out to the wing on this...

 

[GVC]

I've been a football coach for 15 years and I'll readily admit that I understand the nuances of that sport better than I do basketball. But I also know that there's fundamental aspects of coaching that are universal. Not every coach is capable of teaching players and/or putting them in the right position to succeed. Some have it. Some don't.

I had a team that I coached years ago that had an even split of young players and older (veteran) players. I advocated at the time that we needed to play several of the younger players more because they had more talent. We did, and it took us the whole season to figure out what they were best at, where they should be playing and how well they fit together. It was a tough season for us. We went 3-3-1 and missed the playoffs. But they got valuable experience AND we learned more about them and their strengths. The next season, that same group of boys came back as leaders for our team. We added players to compliment them, made changes to our offense and defense to match their strengths and they played with chemistry, intelligence and confidence that they didn't have the year before. They went undefeated that next season. A perfect 10-0, and scored more TDs than the rest of our league combined.

That first year was difficult, because we knew we had the talent but they needed to take their lumps and gain the experience on the field to be able to dominate how they did the following season. They learned from playing, from competing every game and (yes) from losing. All of those things helped them to be better players and a better team. Right now, how I felt about that young group of boys is exactly how I feel about our Utah Jazz. This is a good year to take your lumps and learn as much as you can about this team and these players. I believe that really committing to that process will be painful and hard to stomach at times. And then there's other times that they will totally validate your faith in them. Those moments are what you build on for the future.

I'm not sure what to take away from this post.

The young players were mixed with veterans last season, continue to be mixed with veterans this season, while also serving in on-court leadership roles. That is, the starting lineup features players who fit well together, with the vets (Marvin and RJ) serving complementary roles (the offense is being run through Gordo, Trey and Favors, and Favors is anchoring the defense). The bench is being led by Burks and Kanter. The youth are still taking their lumps, but they're learning by being given greater responsibility and playing in competitive games (I think it's harder to draw parallels between players close in age/experience at the high school/college level and those with vastly different amounts of experience in the pros...the difference in roster sizes between football and basketball are also worth a mention).

Kanter played with Favors in the 4th quarter for the second time in four games last night (the first time that's happened since Kanter's last start). That's almost certainly due to the LA teams playing traditional lineups featuring 2 bigs, which makes Marvin more of a minus than a plus. Still, Corbin seems to be expanding Kanter's role, giving him more postups again. It'll be interesting to see when (if) Corbin uses the two together against smaller lineups down the stretch of close games. Kanter was putting a lot of pressure on the Lakers D last night, even if he still looked a bit lost out there.

 

[fishonjazz]

I guess I just don't see the harm in letting burks start a game or two over a three year span and this year especially.

I know that you guys have all the stats and reasoning of why it wouldn't work but I would just like to see the core 5 start a couple games together and see what happens

 

[gregbroncs]

Gregbroncs, are you still crying about raw rookies not getting playing time they didn't deserve? How much longer until you move on? SMH @ this soccer mom mentality

Franklin, I'm asking for a reasonable explanation for Jefferson's minutes. Just like I was asking 3 years ago about others and never got.

 

[GVC]

Franklin, I'm asking for a reasonable explanation for Jefferson's minutes. Just like I was asking 3 years ago about others and never got.

Jefferson is effectively being used as a floor spacer and 3rd wing player (Corbin has transitioned from a 4-wing to 3-wing rotation). I personally like Burks off the bench (both now AND in the future). There really isn't another option here unless you move Marvin to the 3. Given that the Favors-Marvin combination is working so well, I don't see that happening. I think Gordo's minutes are about right (if not a little high), but would also like to see a few of RJ's minutes go to Alec. With only 3 players being used on the wing though, and with no one else ready to step in as a 4th, RJ is going to continue to get at least 24 minutes per game (leaving between 56 and 72 for Alec and Gordo in non-blowouts).

In response to an earlier post, I don't agree that Favors was or is a better player than Millsap. Millsap's minutes were about right last season. If anything, Millsap or Jefferson should have been moved, Millsap used more at the 3, or some of Al's minutes given to Kanter or Favors.

 

[gregbroncs]

Jefferson is 3rd on our team in minutes.
16th (out of 17) in +/-
9th on the team in PER.(out of 15)
.
He has a lower per than all of Marvin, Favors, Kanter, Hayward, Burke, Burks, Evans and even Harris.
.
So I'd like for Franklin, GVC or any other defender's of Corbin to give me an argument using whatever stats you'd like to justify Jefferson's minutes. Again this is my biggest problem with Corbin. His loyalty to vets.

 

[gregbroncs]

Jefferson is effectively being used as a floor spacer and 3rd wing player (Corbin has transitioned from a 4-wing to 3-wing rotation). I personally like Burks off the bench (both now AND in the future). There really isn't another option here unless you move Marvin to the 3. Given that the Favors-Marvin combination is working so well, I don't see that happening. I think Gordo's minutes are about right (if not a little high), but would also like to see a few of RJ's minutes go to Alec. With only 3 players being used on the wing though, and with no one else ready to step in as a 4th, RJ is going to continue to get at least 24 minutes per game (leaving between 56 and 72 for Alec and Gordo in non-blowouts).

In response to an earlier post, I don't agree that Favors was or is a better player than Millsap. Millsap's minutes were about right last season. If anything, Millsap or Jefferson should have been moved, Millsap used more at the 3, or some of Al's minutes given to Kanter or Favors.

.
Good points. I disagree with them though. I like Burks off of the bench. I think he thrives in a role in which he gets the ball. My problem is that I see Jefferson's minutes better used by Kanter, Burks and Marvin. I believe that Marvin as a SF is more effective than Jefferson. But Corbin does not even attempt it. He's a better shooter than Jefferson as well as a far superior defender IMO.
.
The problem with Jefferson as a 3rd wing is that he is getting the minutes of the 2nd wing.

 

[Jeditiger]

These are the types of posts I need to just stick with from now on.

There was a time when we could actually talk about what we are seeing on the court but now it seems that if I say that I don't like jefferson getting more minutes than burks or something then someone will tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about and throw some stats at me to show me that corbin is making the right decisions each and everytime in every game rather than actually considering what I have to say might have some validity. (Same goes for kanter)

I completely understand what you're saying fish. Communication is a two-way street. You are completely entitled to your opinion that Burks should be playing more. Others will want to point out that there are reasons things are being done the way they are. Nobody has to agree with those reasons, but all anyone asks is that others try to at least understand those reasons. You can understand but disagree (respectfully, I would hope), and that's the beauty of it.

 

[JimLes]

I believe that Marvin as a SF is more effective than Jefferson. But Corbin does not even attempt it. He's a better shooter than Jefferson as well as a far superior defender IMO.

Who'll be the stretch four then? Or do we just stubbornly play Kanter next to Derrick and hope that it just magically works out somehow?

 

[gregbroncs]

Who'll be the stretch four then? Or do we just stubbornly play Kanter next to Derrick and hope that it just magically works out somehow?

Why do you need a stretch 4 with 3 shooters on the floor? Burke, Hayward and Marvin should be able to successfully stretch the floor. Also Kanter and Favors have shown the ability to go out to 15' as well. How would we know if it will or will not work out. Early in the season they were playing with Tinsley and Lucas and Corbin quite on it because it was not working. Of course it was not working they were playing with can't shoot Tinsley and can't pass Lucas.
.
The Spurs play a lot of minutes with 3 shooters and 2 bigs on the floor. And that is if you even consider Parker a shooter.

 

[gregbroncs]

I completely understand what you're saying fish. Communication is a two-way street. You are completely entitled to your opinion that Burks should be playing more. Others will want to point out that there are reasons things are being done the way they are. Nobody has to agree with those reasons, but all anyone asks is that others try to at least understand those reasons. You can understand but disagree (respectfully, I would hope), and that's the beauty of it.

Okay then. What is the reasonable explanation for Jefferson's minutes?