fishonjazz
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jimmy eat jazz
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Expectations for Hayward were, in my opinion, out of synch with what was the most likely outcome. Locke did an analysis of what happened to players who transitioned from a 2nd or 3rd option to a 1st option and he found that with only one exception (Danny Granger), scoring efficiency significantly dropped. Expecting Hayward's efficiency to improve or even remain constant given the circumstances was probably not reasonable, and yet he is criticized ad nauseum for not achieving it.
I don't know how old Boozer was when he came to the Jazz, but he had a lot more playing time than Kanter has had. I just think you are being impatient with young players. Just because they get drafted high doesn't mean they are ready to be all-stars. Yes, the Core5 may or may not work out but at this point it is way too early to throw in the towel.
People look at Leonard or George and say we should have taken them and they are so much further ahead then our picks. Well both guys are on better teams with better players and coaches than our young guys have had. Yes I am making excuses and yes the players need to improve and show better improvement but I am willing to wait a couple of years to see if they make the progression I think they will. It was only last year that the roster was stripped in order to have the young guys play.
They didn't even play much together so how can you evaluate them as bust or just average players. Of course I agree that Favors and Hayward are on the "hot"seat more than Kanter and Burks so they need to step it up this year or I will be on the negative bandwagon with you. I try to give rookies a pass until they get off their rookie contract.
When you get the big money you better start producing or my patience wears thin. I have my doubts with Favors and Hayward that they don't have the "it" factor but this year is when they are officially vets so I will judge them after this year. Kanter, Burks and Trey still are on their rookie contracts so I will be patient unless they obviously stop trying to get better which hasn't been the case. For now they deserve my patience, even though I have a few doubts about their games.
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Sexual Favors
Well-Known Member
People freaking out about our players taking dips in efficiency last year are weird. Did you really expect all of them to just waltz into the starting lineup at the sametime and not have any hiccups? The only one of the C4 who didn't take major hits to efficiency was Alec, and guess what, he only started 12 games.kanter started 37 this year, and only 2 the prior season.
Hayward couldn't shoot at a decent % anymore, and he had been in the starting lineup before.
Favors' Trb% went from 17.9 to 16.7. His blk% went from 5.7 to 3.8, but his ast% went from 6.8 to 7.3 %, and his TOV% went from 15.9 to 12.9%
Kanter's Trb% went from 16.5 to 16.1. His blk % went from 2.3 to 1.5, but his ast% went from 5.0 to 6.4%, and his TOV% went from 19 to 13.3.
Point is, it is extremely hard to be an efficient player while transferring to a new role at the same time almost everyone else on your team is. Basketball is a team game. If your team is not efficient, how can you be?
Instead of bemoaning our players' slight drops in certain advanced stats, I think it is more appropriate to look at how they finished the year, and how on a whole what may be seen as regression" or "plateauing" is actually neither, and was instead progression and development because those stats cane against first tier competition, as opposed to second and third tier.
Give our team some time. As of now, all members of the core4 are above average players in the league per PER. That should be something to celebrate. Let them grow into their new roles and with eachother. rome wasn't built in a day.
The most heartening thing to me is both Favors and Kanter cut down significantly on TOV's, and got a little better at passing. This is GREAT news!
All in all, for as little basketball that Kanter has actually played, he is proving to be an exceptional talent.
Hayward couldn't shoot at a decent % anymore, and he had been in the starting lineup before.
Favors' Trb% went from 17.9 to 16.7. His blk% went from 5.7 to 3.8, but his ast% went from 6.8 to 7.3 %, and his TOV% went from 15.9 to 12.9%
Kanter's Trb% went from 16.5 to 16.1. His blk % went from 2.3 to 1.5, but his ast% went from 5.0 to 6.4%, and his TOV% went from 19 to 13.3.
Point is, it is extremely hard to be an efficient player while transferring to a new role at the same time almost everyone else on your team is. Basketball is a team game. If your team is not efficient, how can you be?
Instead of bemoaning our players' slight drops in certain advanced stats, I think it is more appropriate to look at how they finished the year, and how on a whole what may be seen as regression" or "plateauing" is actually neither, and was instead progression and development because those stats cane against first tier competition, as opposed to second and third tier.
Give our team some time. As of now, all members of the core4 are above average players in the league per PER. That should be something to celebrate. Let them grow into their new roles and with eachother. rome wasn't built in a day.
The most heartening thing to me is both Favors and Kanter cut down significantly on TOV's, and got a little better at passing. This is GREAT news!
All in all, for as little basketball that Kanter has actually played, he is proving to be an exceptional talent.
GVC
Well-Known Member
ew. You can shoot like **** and increase your PER by taking more shots. Someone on the team has to collect rebounds and assists. PER is terrible, especially when judging high usage players on bad teams.
And fwiw, I'm not looking at stats alone. I'm trying to evaluate the players based on skills, progress, potential roles they could fill on a good team.
Gordo isn't an offensive hub OR a perimeter stopper.
Favs has yet to show that he's a great post defender, but has shown an ability to protect the rim and defend the pick and roll well. He's not an on-ball scorer, and his mid-range game is still suspect. As such, he'll probably always be a bit of an offensive liability. He needs to be a bit nastier defensively.
Kanter has decent touch and footwork. Not convinced his bully ball or passing will ever be good enough that you can run the offense through him. Should be able to provide some spacing. He seems completely disinterested on defense, with his hands at his side when defending in space.
Burks looks likes he can be an adequate 6th man. His improved spot-up shooting this season also makes it possible for him to be effective off-ball (this was absolutely HUGE for his development). Lack of strength and a propensity to ball watch make him a liability on defense.
This team still needs a couple players you can run the offense through, a perimeter stopper or two, and a bit more shooting. I don't see the above players providing that. I'd move Gordo and Kanter if it brought back one or two players who could fill key roles.
Sexual Favors
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Sexual Favors
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@DJJazzyJody
I'm also an optimist. I see Kanter as truly having that potential given his age and how little time he's been playing team basketball/coached. Great body, hands, feet, hunger, and potential.
I'm also an optimist. I see Kanter as truly having that potential given his age and how little time he's been playing team basketball/coached. Great body, hands, feet, hunger, and potential.
Sexual Favors
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@DJJazzyJody
GVC
Well-Known Member
I don't agree. See my edited post.
Looking at efficiency without considering context only gives you part of the picture. Gordo wasn't effective out of isos or scoring out of pick and rolls before this past season. His handle is loose, he has a slow first step, and he's not a strong finisher. I don't see that changing. He doesn't have the physical ability to be an offensive hub.
I have no trouble believing Gordo would be more efficient playing off-ball as he did in his first 3 seasons. How much do you want to pay for an average halfcourt defender and average spot-up shooter? The extras Gordo gives you are going to be far less valuable on teams with top-level talent, as Gordo's going to be in possession of the ball a lot less.
Kanter regressed as a team player this past season. It looks like he got caught up in minutes/role, and worked/fought a lot less than in previous seasons. That's not a good sign, no matter who's coaching. It's a competitive league, and nothing comes easy. Sulking doesn't win championships.
orangello
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Sexual Favors
Well-Known Member
I agree Gordon's not an offensive hub in the sense that he's a #1 option, but he is easily a #3. With the way our books are designed, the new tv deal increasing the cap for the next two years, knowing his character and chemistry with team, etc, signing him is a no brainer. He's not getting maxed.
As for Kanter. I see an increased awareness of team play from him, as evidenced by his increase in passing, and improved D by the end of the year. Passing and D were two things he was never taught. He didn't play AAU, for a decent high school program, or college. He was always the best player in the gym, so patience is needed as he learns these new skills. He is obviously interested in learning them, as evidenced by his upward trend with them, but it will continue to take time. You are blurring the context of his locker cleanout comments and allowing them to distort your perception of him and his work ethic. Try to remember the kid who was ecstatic to be drafted by the Jazz. Some of the first words he told the media was "I finally have a team!" I believe that excitement was real and genuine. The kid used to wake up in the middle of the night to watch Jazz games so he could see Okur. And as for his dedication that has been questioned, remember the kid who transformed his body after his rookie season and ate nothing but seafood. That kid is still there, he was just robbed of an offseason of training because he was fighting for the ball, for his team, and wrecked his shoulder.
Kanter cares. Book it.
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[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]
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Gawd, yr such a little bitch. Missing teh point, as per yoozsch.
green
Well-Known Member
Uhhh. Wrong. We sucked and didn't have any players break out…except Richard Jefferson. That is what was most disappointing. No one broke out. One of the "core 4" should have broken out.
I guess maybe Burks broke out and showed he was a very good sixth man. Yay! We have our sixth man of the future!
This is what we know so far:
Burke - rookie pg. He may be good, he may suck. We don't know. He looked like a rookie that hit a wall and had holes in his game.
Burks - Not good enough defensively to start. Very good sixth man.
Hayward - third option on a decent team. fourth option on a great team.
Favors - decent rim defender. below average offensive player. Not a great post defender.
Kanter - terrible defender. Not good in a team offensive scheme. Good one on one in the post. Bench player right now.
So, who showed you anything that makes you excited? All we know right now, is we have the making of the best bench in the NBA. That's it. Oh, we have a good third/fourth option and sixth man.
Yay! Utah Jazz!
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
^^^
Well, at least we found out Corbin isn't our COTF.
Well, at least we found out Corbin isn't our COTF.
GVC
Well-Known Member
What does that mean? Ideally, how is he being used in halfcourt sets? Where might he add extra value? How does he fit in defensively? How replaceable is he? At what cost?
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
I think using his injury as an excuse for his rebounding is wishful thinking.
Kanter has NEVER been in the top ten in the NBA in defensive or total rebound rate category. He's been in top 10 in offensive rebound rate, which isn't nearly as important as defensive rebounding. Kanter was 59th this year in defensive rebounding rate.
Do you know where he ranked the previous year? You know, before the injury? 89th. His first year was his best year both in raw number and ranking, and he was 37th in the league.
He's NEVER been a great defensive rebounder, pre nor post injury.
b_line
Well-Known Member
I am actually excited about Hayward and Favors, and to some extent Burke. (I know everyone is excited about Burks, but I have always thought he was at least the player he showed he was last year)
Reasons to be excited about Hayward: If we get that number one guy, Hayward is suddenly going to look great. When he plays without the pressure of having to be the focal point of the team, he is pretty awesome. And, every once in a while (that game against OKC when he scored 17 straight) he can take things over. That is what you want from a number two or three on a good to great team. Hayward plays so much more confidently when he has someone to go to war with. We just need to make sure that they mesh well together, and I think he could be part of a pretty special team.
Reasons to be excited about Favors: He proved he was the anchor of the team. When you take Favors out of the lineup, the Jazz went from bad to horrible. Favors adds a lot of value in many different ways. He is not a GREAT defensive player, but he can certainly be a good defensive player. His offense was not below average, as you suggested, but it was right about average. With some coaching, he can be an above average offensive player, and an above average defender. That makes his net impact pretty high, as a lot of players can only contribute on one end of the floor. One other thing is that Favors had a midrange jumper this season that looked much improved.
Burke looked pretty effing great playing on a team with only 3 other NBA players, and as a rookie. Hopefully he will figure out how to drive in the NBA, and get to the free throw line, and hopefully his shot can become at least respectable.