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Pres. Of Baskettball Operations Says Interesting Things About Draft, Tomic, and Neto...

When are we going to have Tomic filtered as a bad word? The dude is never coming over here so stop talking about him
 
Core4 said:
Agree. Jazz have certainly bought into the P3 hype. But has it really translated into significant improvement on the BASKETBALL court? And specifically, is there evidence that this improvement is better than what one could expect by just working out and playing pickup games against other pros, like so many other players do.
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Don't be silly. They don't spend their entire summer there. They go at the end of the season, and then again before training camp. The rest of the time is for pickup games etc. Jazz even held an open gym to foster in house pickup games last year. Basketball is more than basketball.

Don't let the 13-14 season fool you. Our players are developing. New roles against better competition, w/ no significant vet support and bad schemes wouldn't make anyone look good.
 
Core4 said:
I think the same can be said of every player on the roster.
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I agree.
A tanking season with a coach that knows he is gone is not a good season to judge players. (Which is mostly my point)

Add in kanters age/experienced combined with a major injury setting him back and its a horrible time to judge him and sell low
 
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fishonjazz said:
Easy way to know if its true or not.

Can you give me an example of amothe basketball player who started playing bball at 16, was not allowed to play college ball, was drafted by a team with a rookie coach, had a major injury at the end his second season and was unable to train properly in the offseason between his 2nd and 3rd year, then had his role and minute change a bunch over the course of his 3rd year, and was playing for a tanking team with a lame duck coach on his way out?

If you cant, then there is a good chance that it is unprecedented.
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So...because every player faces unique circumstances, any information we have about players is completely useless in predicting future outcomes?

fishonjazz said:
yes i think we will know more about kanter after next year than we do right now
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Maybe try to be constructive instead of pedantic. Your next substantive post will be your first. ****ing terrible that Jazzfanz has been overrun by trolls.
 
GVC said:
So...because every player faces unique circumstances, any information we have about players is completely useless in predicting future outcomes?
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You said its not unprecidented.
If there is a precident for kanters situation do tell.....
 
GVC said:
Maybe try to be constructive instead of pedantic. Your next substantive post will be your first. ****ing terrible that Jazzfanz has been overrun by trolls.
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You asked if a coaching change and another year of experience is a better indicator of kanters future than last season.

I answered in the affirmative.

So you ask a question..... someone answers.... you dont like the answer..... you act like a douche.

Rinse and repeat
 
I love this site, and it's posters. But one very annoying thing is how people call other people trolls just because they are unwilling to open their own minds and consider another's viewpoint.
 
Weird that on a site called jazzfanz some people are actually fans of Jazz players.
 
fishonjazz said:
You asked if a coaching change and another year of experience is a better indicator of kanters future than last season.

I answered in the affirmative.

So you ask a question..... someone answers.... you dont like the answer..... you act like a douche.

Rinse and repeat
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I ask questions, you choose to answer only the questions you think are flawed, while ignoring the rest. You accuse me of poor behavior. You're an ***.

I just don't accept that we can treat last season as though it didn't happen. We certainly can't treat it that way selectively, as you do with Burks and Kanter. We ought to be able to learn something from the way the players performed last season. This includes Kanter (and your boy Burks). Yes, context matters, but it's not everything.


I try to evaluate players based on how they'd fit on a contending team. There seem to be a couple ways to build such a team:

1. Current Spurs: A collection of really smart team basketball players who fit together well: Lots of specialists, and a few players who can adequately initiate the offense. At this point Manu and (especially) Timmy are not the consistent offensive forces they once were. They still make it work with an incredible level of team play.

2. Current Thunder: Two or Three of the very best players in the league.

note: Miami is a bit of both, as they function better as a team than the Thunder, but don't have the depth of the Spurs.

The issue I have with Kanter is the same issue I had with Al. His feel for the team game is poor, so it's difficult to build a team like the Spurs with Kanter as a top-paid, key piece. Meanwhile, his talent simply isn't comparable to the top players in the league, so it doesn't look like he can fill a top role on a team like the Thunder. Put another way, Kanter doesn't have the feel to be an effective role player, and doesn't have the talent to adequately fill a primary role (offensive hub, rim protector). I think BBIQ is severely under-appreciated in general, especially in today's NBA. Kanter has a really long way to go to show he's actually a basketball player, and not just a guy with the body and individual physical skills needed to play basketball.

Hayward's problems are a bit different. He's a jack of all trades, master of none type player. If you think there are diminishing returns on specific skills (rebounding, shooting, on-ball offense) in basketball, then the extra little bit of everything he provides is not nearly as valuable on a team with elite players. Specialists are cheaper AND provide more value filling in for specific weaknesses of key players and the lineups they're in. If the Jazz can't find a way to roll over their cap space to next summer OR sign a player who fills a key role, though, signing Gordo at a price that makes him movable is still a no-brainer.

If Tomic doesn't currently have real trade value, and the Jazz can bring him over, they should. If he doesn't work out, he can be cut/moved. If Kanter/Favors don't respond well to the competition for playing time, they probably aren't the sort of players you need to build a contending team.
 
GVC said:
I just don't accept that we can treat last season as though it didn't happen. We certainly can't treat it that way selectively, as you do with Burks and Kanter. We ought to be able to learn something from the way the players performed last season. This includes Kanter (and your boy Burks). Yes, context matters, but it's not everything.
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You have got me all wrong with this assumption homeboy.

I think we can look at last season and judge what we saw..... with a grain of salt due to the circumstances.

If you want to say kanter sucked and show me stats (which you have) then im fine with that and can even agree with you.

I just dont think you say he sucked last year, therefore he is garbage so lets get rid of him because since he sucked last year he will always suck.... which is kind of how you sound.
To me that is the wrong way to predict a players future. I think you should look at circumstance and how those circunstances might change and how those changes might effect a players future
 
You talk alot about kanters bbiq being low. Thats fine i agree.
But you act as if since he has a low bbiq then he is a lost cause.
I think maybe he needs someone to help him increase his bbiq.... along with maturing and more experience and better teammates.

I remember watching young kobe and seeing a guy with horrible shot selection who would get lost on defense and have really ugly stupid turnovers.

Then he got better. Sometimes that happens to young players.....ESPECIALLY players with as little lifetime bball experience as kanter has..... plus all the other stuff (injury, coaching, tanking, poor teammates, poor defensive and offensive gameplans, etc)
 
fishonjazz said:
I just dont think you say he sucked last year, therefore he is garbage so lets get rid of him because since he sucked last year he will always suck.... which is kind of how you sound.
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Not that I'm not presumptuous in reading intent into others' posts, but I make an effort to take what people have written at face value. I can get defensive at times too. That's my bad. Similarly, when people read into my posts more than I've written, that's their bad. It's incredibly irritating when posters are irrationally defensive of their favorite young talent on the team.
 
Kanter has low basketball knowledge. Let's give him a reasonable amount of time to absorb the knowledge before we start claiming he has low BBIQ.

A player who was never really coached before they got to the NBA isn't really going to know how to play. Kanter played more than twice as many minutes last year as he played in his first two seasons, and still it was only 26.5 a game (whether he should have played more or less is irrelevant to my point). You can't honestly tell me that Kanter has received enough coaching attention and on court experience to absorb enough basketball knowledge to be determining what kind of BBIQ he has. Knowledge informs how IQ is applied. Kanter is a prospect that probably needs twice as much time as most, and since he is so young, and our team isn't contending for the title anytime soon, what is the rush?
 
fishonjazz said:
YI remember watching young kobe and seeing a guy with horrible shot selection who would get lost on defense and have really ugly stupid turnovers.

Then he got better. Sometimes that happens to young players.....ESPECIALLY players with as little lifetime bball experience as kanter has..... plus all the other stuff (injury, coaching, tanking, poor teammates, poor defensive and offensive gameplans, etc)
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Kobe was an all-star in his second season at the age of 19. He's also an incredibly intelligent basketball player (who can get tunnel vision at times). I think a lot of fans take for granted the mental side of the game, and how it's just as difficult, if not more difficult, to improve BBIQ as it is to improve physical tools and skills.
 
GVC said:
Not that I'm not presumptuous in reading intent into others' posts, but I make an effort to take what people have written at face value. I can get defensive at times too. That's my bad. Similarly, when people read into my posts more than I've written, that's their bad. It's incredibly irritating when posters are irrationally defensive of their favorite young talent on the team.
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Fwiw i notice all the flaws of our young guys and dont think any (burks included) are untouchable and in the trade threads and draft threads have been open to trading any one of them for the right thing.

I evaluate them harshly..... then try to understand what may be contributing to the things that they struggle with.

In some cases i believe things can be improved on (kanters bbiq, and defense) in other cases i dont think things are likely to change (burks lack of strength against players who post him up, burks inability to fight through screens..... though i think there are schemes to make it so he has to do that less. treys lack of size and quickness. Favors lack of outside shot. among others)

i think i see you as a blind hater and you see me as a blind homer.

just want you to know thats not the case with me
 
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