Poll: Should the Jazz Match Hayward's $15.75 a year/4 year Contract?

[BTP]

Link? A little googling on my end seems to indicate that the rule was introduced by owners to allow them to match offers to non-Bird restricted free agents, which makes more sense given that that's exactly what the exception does.

It's probably worth pointing out that Wes Matthews' cap hit in seasons 2 and 3 was greater than the salary of the #1 overall pick from his draft class, which was less than the midlevel exception. He was actually paid about $10mm in his first year in Portland because he was given a signing bonus.

Given all this information, your story doesn't make any sense. Not that it matters.

Ye, I was wrong about that seemingly. #memoryisntperfect

 

[fishonjazz]

Steph Curry per 36(makes, attempts,pct): 3.37.8.424
Bradley Beal:2.04.9.402
Klay Thompson:2.86.7.417 <- he's also restricted next year.
Alec Burks:0.82.3.350

Your point?

Alec has shot better as he has got more attempts and minutes.

Also is a much better player than those guys at getting the hoop/line and finishing through contact

 

[fishonjazz]

You focus only on offense and individual plays.

wrong

#defensewinschampionships

I thought the spurs were better offensively than defensively.

Same with the showtime lakers.

Imo, a combination of offense and defense win championships..... with the exception of the baltimore ravens from a while ago

 

[BTP]

Your point?

Alec has shot better as he has got more attempts and minutes.

Also is a much better player than those guys at getting the hoop/line and finishing through contact

Welp it was about shooting. I said he wasn't a good shooter. People misinterpreted that. I said, he's an opportunistic shooter, and compared his frequency and accuracy with Great shooters. And there's a lot between them.

 

[cowhide]

Deng hasn't signaled interest until now and doesn't fit the championship window. I'd say yes to Luol because I both like him as a player and as a person. But not instead of Gordon, but on top of him. Will do some calculations now.

One thing that I feel is a genereally accepted truth here:
Gordon's price tag doesn't deserve an upside component because he's got horrible measurements, mediocre athleticism and is a white player whose game depends more on skill and finesse.

I think his contract will be sub optimal but far from horrible from a value to price ratio

This has nothing to do with race or upside, it has to do with performance. Gordon has had four years to earn a max contract on his performance and he didn't do it. Regardless if he gets a max or not he still isn't worth it.

 

[BTP]

This has nothing to do with race or upside, it has to do with performance. Gordon has had four years to earn a max contract on his performance and he didn't do it. Regardless if he gets a max or not he still isn't worth it.

Well Charlotte disagrees. And I can see where they are coming from. GOrdon fills a position of need for them(SF) and they lack playmaking, one of Gordon's biggest strengths.
Also they have a defensive system in place that was functional with guys buying in despite not being individually elite. Hayward fitts that mold.

 

[cowhide]

Steph Curry per 36(makes, attempts,pct): 3.3 7.8 .424
Bradley Beal:2.0 4.9 .402
Klay Thompson:2.8 6.7 .417 <- he's also restricted next year.
Alec Burks:0.8 2.3 .350



They could(prolly shouldn't). But still there's 20 free agents on 10 teams, instead of 10 free agents on 15 teams.

Blazers:
Robin Lopez $9.2M
LaMarcus Aldridge $16.8M
Dorell Wright $4.1M
Joel Freeland $5.7M
Wesley Matthews $10.9M
Victor Claver $2.6M
Will Barton $1.2M
T-Rob $4.6M+ don't know how its being calculated when a team option is declined during rookie contracts.

salaries:
Batum 12.2M
Lillard 4.2M
McCollum 2.5M
Leonard 3.0M

Add at least 1 more min contract to fill min roster spots. $0.5M

This results in a cap hold of $77.5M before you start renouncing rights to certain players, sign them to new contracts and stuff. Figure out yourself.

OKC:

Kevin Durant $20.2M
Russell Westbrook $16.7M
Serge Ibaka $12.4M
Jeremy Lamb $3.0M
Steven Adams $2.3M
Mitch McGary $1,4M
Andre Roberson $1.2M
Perry Jones III $2.0M
Josh Huestis $1M

$60.2M guaranteed contracts

cap holds:
Kendrick Perkins $14.1M
Reggie Jackson $5.5M
Nick Collison $4.3M

All numbers via basketballinsiders.com and storytellerscontracts.info

Now figure out how flexible they're going to be not using exceptions and staying over the cap.



Yeah this shows again a point for which I called out in the past and you said I misinterpreted your statements. You focus only on offense and individual plays.
#defensewinschampionships

Just think if OKC hadn't wasted $14.2 million on Perkins who has given them very little they could have kept Harden with a little adjustment to their roster.

 

[cowhide]

Well Charlotte disagrees. And I can see where they are coming from. GOrdon fills a position of need for them(SF) and they lack playmaking, one of Gordon's biggest strengths.
Also they have a defensive system in place that was functional with guys buying in despite not being individually elite. Hayward fitts that mold.

Well then let Charlotte have him since they are so astute when it comes to evaluating talent. Still don't know what race has to do with it.

 

[fishonjazz]

Welp it was about shooting. I said he wasn't a good shooter. People misinterpreted that. I said, he's an opportunistic shooter, and compared his frequency and accuracy with Great shooters. And there's a lot between them.

Its too bad that burks is so good at slashing and getting to the hoop.

Hopefully someday soon he will suck at that and start shooting (and making) lots of threes so that he can be considered a great shooter

 

[BTP]

Its too bad that burks is so good at slashing and getting to the hoop.

Hopefully someday soon he will suck at that and start shooting (and making) lots of threes so that he can be considered a great shooter

Completely missing the point. Oladipo is good at going to the rim too. Payton projects to be strong in that department as well. Redundant talent for Orlando. A 6th man wing is not worth double digit millions for a team that hasn't finished their rebuild.

 

[BTP]

Well then let Charlotte have him since they are so astute when it comes to evaluating talent. Still don't know what race has to do with it.

Well just the frequency how people discuss about players upside. And a white, non athletic body seems to be less attractive than a black highly athletic body basketball-wise. Just me reading between the line of various posts from various contributors.

Well I'd rather pay Gordon 16, get value of 12 in return basketball wise instead of hiring some 30 year old instead who's dropped off in some years anyways.

Also next contract for Gordon will be about value, not upside. Huge advantage when the salary actually matters.

 

[colton]

What about the Nick Collison precedent where putting the signing bonus all into the first year's cap space allows teams to structure deals to be tremendously front-loaded?

See: https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/22025/inside-collisons-unique-contract-extension

To the best of my knowledge this did not change with the most recent CBA. Sounds to me like this is the kind of structure PKM is actually hoping for.

"A signing bonus is paid up-front, but it is charged to the salary cap across the guaranteed seasons in the contract (not including option years or years following an ETO), in proportion to the percentage of salary in each of those seasons that is guaranteed"
https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q74

So you can front load the money you pay the player, but you can't front load the cap hit.

 

[colton]

Ye, I was wrong about that seemingly. #memoryisntperfect

Careful...by apologizing for being wrong you run the risk of breaking the internet.

 

[franklin]

Yup

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Nope

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The war is coming!

How did you view poll results?

 

[Stoked]

How did you view poll results?

While the poll was open there is a second button that alows you to see who voted for what. It has to be a chosen option by the thread creator and I believe it only lasts as long as votes can be cast.

The second way, again has to be chosen by the thread creator, is clicking on the number of votes and it will break down who voted what.

 

[Coach Ellis]

This has nothing to do with race or upside, it has to do with performance. Gordon has had four years to earn a max contract on his performance and he didn't do it. Regardless if he gets a max or not he still isn't worth it.

Technically, he isn't worth the risk. That has no bearing on whether or not he actually exceeds expectations and earns the contract that he's gotten. Not likely, but not entirely impossible either. He's a talented young player that does have room to grow his game. He's spent most of his career playing for below average coach. I'm hoping Snyder is a huge improvement in that area, and that Gordon Hayward thrives under his guidance.

 

[GVC]

"A signing bonus is paid up-front, but it is charged to the salary cap across the guaranteed seasons in the contract (not including option years or years following an ETO), in proportion to the percentage of salary in each of those seasons that is guaranteed"
https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q74

So you can front load the money you pay the player, but you can't front load the cap hit.

Take a look at #59 and #60. The loophole has been closed somewhat, as the max decrease in salary from the last year of a renegotiated contract to the first year of an extension is 40%. You could renegotiate the final year of a 4- or 5-year contract up to the cap, extend the contract starting at 40% of the amended contract, and include both 7.5% decreases through the extension AND a 15% signing bonus. Unfortunately, rookie scale contracts can't be renegotiated.

 

[sirkickyass]

"A signing bonus is paid up-front, but it is charged to the salary cap across the guaranteed seasons in the contract (not including option years or years following an ETO), in proportion to the percentage of salary in each of those seasons that is guaranteed"
https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q74

So you can front load the money you pay the player, but you can't front load the cap hit.

I'm trying to square Coon's statement with how the Nick Collison Contract actually worked. The explanation from the original link I posted was as follows "Signing bonuses in extensions are usually pro-rated through the life of the contract. Teams under the cap, though, can apply the entire signing bonus at the time the extension is signed, as long as the bonus doesn't exceed the available cap space."

It appears the FAQ answer states the general rule but Collison did something different. It's possible that this is due to differences in the CBA provisions but I can't find which part changed and it's not listed in the appendix outlining differences between the 2005 and 20011 CBAs.

In looking at it more carefully it's possible that this specific cap maneuver was possible only because a) Collison's contract was an extension rather than a new deal and b) the entire signing bonus was paid in the year prior to the extension kicking in, so the Thunder were able to charge it to the single year remaining on Collison's old deal rather than spreading it out across the years of his next deal. This may be even more of a corner case than I thought.

This results in a cap hold of $77.5M before you start renouncing rights to certain players, sign them to new contracts and stuff. Figure out yourself.

I never actually looked up Portland. I just went with your number of $56 million. That's why I quoted you. Turns out I didn't anticipate you arguing with yourself.

OKC:

Kevin Durant $20.2M
Russell Westbrook $16.7M
Serge Ibaka $12.4M
Jeremy Lamb $3.0M
Steven Adams $2.3M
Mitch McGary $1,4M
Andre Roberson $1.2M
Perry Jones III $2.0M
Josh Huestis $1M

$60.2M guaranteed contracts

cap holds:
Kendrick Perkins $14.1M
Reggie Jackson $5.5M
Nick Collison $4.3M

All numbers via basketballinsiders.com and storytellerscontracts.info

Now figure out how flexible they're going to be not using exceptions and staying over the cap.

First of all, you completely folded on Sacramento and Boston, so I'm assuming that you're conceding they will have ample cap space next season.

Second of all, you're playing fast and loose with OKC. Looking at hoopshype it's clear that 4 of those contracts (Lamb, Adams, Jones, and Roberson) are Team Options, not guaranteed coin. Second, no one in their right mind thinks that OKC won't renounce their rights to Perkins to clear that $14 million cap hold. Perkins isn't worth anywhere near the midlevel and the team doesn't need bird rights to resign him to a deal while clearing max cap space (if they even want him). If you don't think that OKC can't easily clear $10 million + of cap room for next offseason (assuming no large multi-year deals this offseason) then I don't know what you're looking at objectively.

 

[sirkickyass]

Take a look at #59 and #60. The loophole has been closed somewhat, as the max decrease in salary from the last year of a renegotiated contract to the first year of an extension is 40%. You could renegotiate the final year of a 4- or 5-year contract up to the cap, extend the contract starting at 40% of the amended contract, and include both 7.5% decreases through the extension AND a 15% signing bonus. Unfortunately, rookie scale contracts can't be renegotiated.

Thanks this is helpful. So the Collison deal is still possble but to a weaker degree. Still a hell of a tool to keep in mind.

 

[BTP]

Lemme see:
Blazers: At least 56.5M cap hold if they renounce every slacker. That would exclude them from using MLE though. Not sure they want that. Also some of their own guys are due for raises. -> Unlikely

I never actually looked up Portland. I just went with your number of $56 million. That's why I quoted you. Turns out I didn't anticipate you arguing with yourself.

Turns out your getting bested by a foreigner in reading comprehension. Turns out you can't read and memorize for 10 sec or comprehend the meaning of my words. TUrns out I'm not arguing with myself.

First of all, you completely folded on Sacramento and Boston, so I'm assuming that you're conceding they will have ample cap space next season.

Second of all, you're playing fast and loose with OKC. Looking at hoopshype it's clear that 4 of those contracts (Lamb, Adams, Jones, and Roberson) are Team Options, not guaranteed coin. Second, no one in their right mind thinks that OKC won't renounce their rights to Perkins to clear that $14 million cap hold. Perkins isn't worth anywhere near the midlevel and the team doesn't need bird rights to resign him to a deal while clearing max cap space (if they even want him). If you don't think that OKC can't easily clear $10 million + of cap room for next offseason (assuming no large multi-year deals this offseason) then I don't know what you're looking at objectively.

Boston has multiple options. Right now they're still stockpiling assets which may hint to be a long term rebuild.
Then Boston might pitch their former championship banners, which could result in them preemptively ending rebuilding which may or may not return results for them.

Sacto has drafted Stauskas and McLemore rotting on the bench now. What's the purpose for them to pursue Burks when there's 15 unrestricted who fill a need actually.
Same for Enes next to Cousins. They like Gay and will go after him and maybe other guys. Maybe Dragic to improve at PG.

But then there's the crazy owner from India. So maybe they sign Burks to an offer sheet just to stick it to the Jazz. We'll see. I just think it's unlikely. Also thought you could see that yourself.

OKC would have to decline team options before 14/15 starts.
Then assuming they only keep Adams, Huestis and McGary from their non high level production guys, then they're against the cap for at least 61.4(20.2+16.7+12.4+5.5(Reggie's insiders hold, which appears to be too low IMO. Closer to 8 IMO) + 1.3(McGary) +1 (Huestis) + 2.3(Adams) + 6*.5 for cap holds to fill out remaining roster spots. That also assumes they trade away their '15 first rounder)
Projected Cap is between 65 and 66.5 depending on which source. So you have a mind whopping 3.6 to 5.1 million in cap space which strips you of the option to use the MLE.

If Reggie's caphold is 8(250% of 4th year salary, cap hold for guys that are very productive) then we have no room at all. Sorry but I fail to see where the Thunder are players next summer.