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GVC said:
That was in postup situations only, I think. My above post is for all possessions. Regardless, the two are on completely different levels as players. Pau is head and shoulders above Jefferson as an NBA player. The comparison is stupid.
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It's your own comparison. I'm just serving it back up to you.
 
GVC said:
PER says very little about team and transition play, and thus oversells Jefferson's contributions. Since he's roughly average scoring the basketball, what else does he bring to the table to help his team and teammates win basketball games?
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You're running out of rope. I suggest you bring up the TS% and adj. +/- stats quickly.
 
billyshelby said:
You're running out of rope. I suggest you bring up the TS% and adj. +/- stats quickly.
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uh huh. How many more questions are you going to avoid?

As for what I posted, it's absolutely true. Big Al has not been a winning basketball player throughout his career (and I'm not talking about team success only). He's not good enough to build a good team around, and not versatile enough to be a solid role player. The negatives outweigh the positives, especially considering his salary.
 
Jeffersuck sucks because he's a selfish whore who couldn't even get the Wolves into the playoffs. Look how Pau won all those championships by himself when he was on the Grizzlies.
 
GVC said:
uh huh. How many more questions are you going to avoid?

As for what I posted, it's absolutely true. Big Al has not been a winning basketball player throughout his career (and I'm not talking about team success only). He's not good enough to build a good team around, and not versatile enough to be a solid role player. The negatives outweigh the positives, especially considering his salary.
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You want me to answer a question that can't be answered and I'm ducking it? Al's teams in Minny lost a lot of basketball games. He was the only decent player on their roster for years. How does anybody know how many more games they would have won or lost if he wasn't on it? This is basic cause/correlation fallacy.
 
billyshelby said:
You want me to answer a question that can't be answered and I'm ducking it? Al's teams in Minny lost a lot of basketball games. He was the only decent player on their roster for years. How does anybody know how many more games they would have won or lost if he wasn't on it? This is basic cause/correlation fallacy.
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I want you to explain how, given his middling scoring numbers, he contributes to wins. How he can be part of a championship team when he doesn't seem to be able to fit into a system or figure out team play? I want an explanation, not just baseless assertions.

Do you dismiss entirely that the teams Jefferson has been on have been better with him off the court than on, even when adjusting for teammates and opponents? How is he going to fit next to Favors and Kanter?
 
...and to think when I bumped this thread I thought it would be about SF free agent pickups.
 
GVC said:
I want you to explain how, given his middling scoring numbers, he contributes to wins. How he can be part of a championship team when he doesn't seem to be able to fit into a system or figure out team play? I want an explanation, not just baseless assertions.
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Let me get this straight. You want me to provide explanations for your baseless assertions?
 
billyshelby said:
Let me get this straight. You want me to provide explanations for your baseless assertions?
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So, in your eyes, Big Al is a good team and transition player? He creates better scoring opportunities for his teammates?

And, since you've posted PER, and because I know you hate them so much, here are Jefferson's Adjusted +/- numbers for the last 4 seasons:

10/11: -4.08
09/10: -6.45
08/09: 5.04
07/08: -13.66
 
I want to understand your position better. As far as I can tell, you're stuck on the idea that Big Al is an elite low post scorer and that's it. Is that your whole contention? Is that all that matters? I seek understanding at this point.

I admit- as I have in the past- that I am aggressive because of all the outrageous Millsap hate on this board (dudes suggesting he be traded for Robin Lopez and Mickael Pietrus, etc.). Millsap is the better player IMO, and I'm willing to discuss why. All I get in return is "Big Al is an elite low post scorer" and "Millsap is undersized". These arguments seem to be lacking a whole lot of content to me.
 
GVC said:
I want to understand your position better. As far as I can tell, you're stuck on the idea that Big Al is an elite low post scorer and that's it. Is that your whole contention? Is that all that matters? I seek understanding at this point.

I admit- as I have in the past- that I am aggressive because of all the outrageous Millsap hate on this board (dudes suggesting he be traded for Robin Lopez and Mickael Pietrus, etc.). Millsap is the better player IMO, and I'm willing to discuss why. All I get in return is "Big Al is an elite low post scorer" and "Millsap is undersized". These arguments seem to be lacking a whole lot of content to me.
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I'm a Millsap guy, don't get me wrong, but why not give Jefferson at least one more year to see how he pans out? Sometimes it takes a little time to adjust properly to a team. As for Millsap, why or how did he forget how to rebound the the ball last year, and most importantly, why did he stop boxing out?
 
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GVC said:
So, in your eyes, Big Al is a good team and transition player? He creates better scoring opportunities for his teammates?

And, since you've posted PER, and because I know you hate them so much, here are Jefferson's Adjusted +/- numbers for the last 4 seasons:

10/11: -4.08
09/10: -6.45
08/09: 5.04
07/08: -13.66
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What a shock. The adj +/- argument. Just waiting for the TS% argument. As usual, we'll skip the context of the players he played with, the systems that were run, what he was specifically asked to do, etc. It's plainly obvious Al was killing Minnesota averaging 21 and 11 and 23 and 11. And, of course, it's just as plainly obvious they lost more games because of him instead of actually winning a few more than they should have.
 
billyshelby said:
As usual, we'll skip the context of the players he played with, the systems that were run, what he was specifically asked to do, etc.
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I've yet to see Big Al be a player that can do anything other than sit in the low post and shoot the basketball. He doesn't look/play like a system player. I'm more than willing to wait-and-see this coming season, but as of right now, he's 4th on my list of longterm Jazz big men.

And what exactly is wrong with TS% as a metric?
 
Another **** on Big Al thread. I really hope all the Big Al haters don't jump the bandwagon when he once again will carry the team next year. Give the dude a break, he finally was put on a good team and then the superstar gets traded and HOF coach gone.

Just for the sake of it, what big guy(s) would you rather have than Big Al that we could realistically get. The only big men I would rather have than Big Al is Howard,Griffin,Amare,Dirk,Aldridge and maybe Kevin Love

Pau- hell no, soft piece of **** that is inconsistent and overpaid like crazy
Marc- I more of a stats guy and he simply doesn't provide it- 11 points 7 boards?? Love the toughness,size and defense but thats about it
Duncan/Garnett- Not anymore
Bynum- Always hurt
Boozer- Ha ha ha ha
Noah/Chandler- Great defensive presence but no offense at all
Bosh- **** no, not a rebounder, hardly any D and not much of a post game(more of a finesse guy)
Nene- No offense outside of dunking, post very mediocre rebounding #'s for a guy w/his size and athleticism
Bogut- If he was healthy, I would prefer him
 
GVC said:
I want to understand your position better. As far as I can tell, you're stuck on the idea that Big Al is an elite low post scorer and that's it. Is that your whole contention? Is that all that matters? I seek understanding at this point.

I admit- as I have in the past- that I am aggressive because of all the outrageous Millsap hate on this board (dudes suggesting he be traded for Robin Lopez and Mickael Pietrus, etc.). Millsap is the better player IMO, and I'm willing to discuss why. All I get in return is "Big Al is an elite low post scorer" and "Millsap is undersized". These arguments seem to be lacking a whole lot of content to me.
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You understand my argument perfectly, you just refuse to accept it. It's more or less the Randolph argument. Randolph was an elite post player before he got to Memphis. He got tagged with the loser label because the teams he played on generally stunk. But he was always a guy you could win with. He just needed to get on the right team that utilized his talents.
 
GVC said:
I've yet to see Big Al be a player that can do anything other than sit in the low post and shoot the basketball. He doesn't look/play like a system player. I'm more than willing to wait-and-see this coming season, but as of right now, he's 4th on my list of longterm Jazz big men.

And what exactly is wrong with TS% as a metric?
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I've never said there was anything wrong with TS. I just think you overstate its significance. It's definitely an area he needs to improve in.

Did we run a system last year? I must have missed that.
 
And I don't "hate" Jefferson. I just prefer Favors, Millsap and Kanter moving forward. This could change if Big Al comes back in shape and with a better understanding of and willingness/ability to play within whatever system Ty and the coaching staff installs. I just don't Jefferson the same way some others do, and I find that a lot of the available data out there supports my viewpoint more than theirs. Is that so wrong?
 
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