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Another blow to homeopathy

And one more thing, some of the information presented here makes it seem like homeopathy is somewhat similar to immunotherapy. That is NOT the case. Homeopathy is NOT taking a little bit of the disease in order to form immunity. It is closer to Middle Ages "humors" theory. There exist manuals for which diseases correspond to which elements. So it will go something like "sulfur produces symptoms similar to stomach cancer in healthy people, thus, it can be used as a remedy for stomach cancer". As for the homeopathic part itself, the more dilute it is, the more effective they claim it to be. Why? Well, each practitioner will give a different pseudoscientific mechanism, but the most common is that water will "remember the things that touched it. I knew a New Age guy who would sell "remedies" that are supposed to be placed underneath a glass of water, without even actually touching the water itself.

THAT'S the level of nonsense we're talking about. It is no different than paying a witch to create a concoction that will purify the spirits from your body.
 
It is not a scientific theory and it makes no scientific hypotheses. It is not an attempt to explain observations, it does not make testable predictions, and it doesn't provide any possible mechanisms for pretty miraculous claims. Not all ideas are created equal, and I'm perfectly happy mocking and dismissing ******** without a second thought.



Nobody is trying to take away your ability to make stupid decisions. People have been selling homeopathic placebos for a century now. Here at the government/corporates/NGOs/cookie monster/Illuminati, we are concerned about other things, like faking bombings with smoke machines.



I would be more than happy to discuss the merits of my worldview compared to yours. But I will only discuss it through logic and rational analysis. My past experience debating you indicates that you won't. Instead, you'll take a religious position that you consider to be inherently true.



What power would that be? The UN is completely neutered and without any real power. I can only WISH that wasn't the case.



And what objectivity have you used to evaluate homeopathy? You seem attracted to it merely because of its conspiratorial nature. And baseless paranoia over everyone trying to screw you over is most certainly not objective evidence for anything. I, on the other hand, am dismissing it for perfectly objective reasons; if there was even the slightest truth to homeopathy, then tap water, with its endless trace minerals, would have already cured everything. But then again, homeopathic remedies have even less in them than tap water. Your point about mainstream medicine is irrelevant. Of course medicines have side effects. The body is complicated and introducing a foreign substance has a cost. Is all of academia in on this conspiracy too?

It is funny how for spiritualists, objectivity is used sparingly whenever it seems to confirm a desired perspective. Biological evolution, which is a fact with an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence that is agreed upon by all biologists from all kinds of religions and ideologies, is summarily dismissed as it doesn't fit with what you decided the reality should be. Garbage spouted by a couple of ignoramuses on Youtube deserves all the attention in the world because it fits with the delusions of a worldwide conspiracy to oppress you. I am finished trying to be pragmatic to spare feelings. You are as far from being objective as they come. Whenever it suits you, rationality becomes the delusion of pretentious intellectuals (who disagree with you). Other times, nothing is more important than rationality! You're the dishonest one, not me.

I think you should deal with facts about what I actually said rather than do this kind of dishonesty.

Show me some assertion I made about homeopathy that is not factual, for example.

Meanwhile you still refuse to honestly address the real power behind UN decisions and the implications of nations signing on to UN agendas such as Codex Alimentarius and scores of others like Agenda 21. If you have to have an institutional approval to do business, including infinitely diluted "homeopathic treatments" you need to recognize rather than deny the truth of UN power.

My own view of homeopathy is that it is a meaningless claim in the first place with scores of practitioners using their own definitions. You have the same logical error here as you have when you discuss "God" and deny the use or validity of something you can't or won't define, or where you use your own definition to discredit the beliefs of others.

I challenge you to get honest here. If you can.

The reason I bring it in here is because the same institutions that are trying to maintain authoritative regimes in medical practice are attacking all forms of challenges to their dogma. Personally, I am glad I never did anything for my illness but correct my diet and maybe do some compensatory nutrition. A lot of good things happen when living things have the essential elements of good health, including proper exercise and diet. I haven't said one word here claiming homeopathy had any validity but perhaps the positive effects of "hope".

The lot of ordinary state-centered thinkers who want all the laws they can imagine is on a sort of mental trip off the path of ordinary good sense. I've said this to you before, but there is an inherent advantage in nature in the favor of disseminated decisions and authority. We do have a few "organisms" like beehives with a sort of central planning authority and a lot of unthinking drones, more or less, but so many examples of species that survive because of the capability of diverse individual decision-making.

I understand the appeal of central planning to intelligent people who have some notions of how everything should be done, but I believe it is a failed solution to human problems. It's been attempted many times, and because it becomes corrupted by players positioning themselves for individual power, it fails.
 
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I think you should deal with facts about what I actually said rather than do this kind of dishonesty.

Show me some assertion I made about homeopathy that is not factual, for example.

I actually responded to your post point by point. You presented no facts, so there are no facts for me to deal with.

Meanwhile you still refuse to honestly address the real power behind UN decisions and the implications of nations signing on to UN agendas such as Codex Alimentarius and scores of others like Agenda 21. If you have to have an institutional approval to do business, including infinitely diluted "homeopathic treatments" you need to recognize rather than deny the truth of UN power.

Again, please present a fact or a rational argument. I'm not going to respond to vague paranoia about the UN's plans to oppress you. Show me examples of the UN superseding local law to prevent people from starting a business. The institution has been around for decades, I'm sure you can find numerous examples of the horrible oppression imparted by the UN on innocent, God-fearing Americans..

Like I said in my previous post, crooks have been scamming people for a century, and nothing was done about it. And unlike the evil pharmaceuticals whose accomplishments can fill a library, homeopathic remedies are not regulated and do not have to meet any standards of safety or efficacy (not that it would matter to you, as the regulation is passed by the equally evil government).

My own view of homeopathy is that it is a meaningless claim in the first place with scores of practitioners using their own definitions. You have the same logical error here as you have when you discuss "God" and deny the use or validity of something you can't or won't define, or where you use your own definition to discredit the beliefs of others.

Oh meaningless, is it? Because you seemed to have a real problem with me making fun of it as a baseless and nonsensical practice. As for the second part of your statement, I really don't know what to say. It is a logical error to reject something that has no definition? The depth of your beliefs is utterly irrelevant to what is and isn't true. I reject them because they are obviously untrue. but no no, don't let me keep you from explaining how logic still works when we're debating undefinable terms. I look forward to your response, as it would revolutionize computer science and all logic based thought. How exciting!

I challenge you to get honest here. If you can.

The reason I bring it in here is because the same institutions that are trying to maintain authoritative regimes in medical practice are attacking all forms of challenges to their dogma.

Yes, I am indeed trying to maintain the institutions that helped us eliminate numerous diseases, turned infant mortality from a societal norm into an aberration, and pushed average lifespan to more than 85 years. And in only a few decades! But again, don't let my enthusiasm for objective knowledge and the amazing world it gave us overshadow your baseless fear about the UN stealing your job. Both views are perfectly reasonable. You know, because belief is magical!
 
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The reason I bring it in here is because the same institutions that are trying to maintain authoritative regimes in medical practice are attacking all forms of challenges to their dogma. Personally, I am glad I never did anything for my illness but correct my diet and maybe do some compensatory nutrition. A lot of good things happen when living things have the essential elements of good health, including proper exercise and diet. I haven't said one word here claiming homeopathy had any validity but perhaps the positive effects of "hope".

Every system has its flaws, medicine included. I am as interested as anyone in making sure everyone is held to the highest scientific standards. As for the anecdote about your illness, good for you, I guess? Many other illnesses will kill you if you try to deal with them with "proper diet". I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up actually. Are you suggesting that this is the correct way of dealing with disease? Because for someone who claims to be objective, it's a pretty laughable statement that is disproved a trillion times over throughout the thousands of years of recorded human history.

The lot of ordinary state-centered thinkers who want all the laws they can imagine is on a sort of mental trip off the path of ordinary good sense. I've said this to you before, but there is an inherent advantage in nature in the favor of disseminated decisions and authority. We do have a few "organisms" like beehives with a sort of central planning authority and a lot of unthinking drones, more or less, but so many examples of species that survive because of the capability of diverse individual decision-making.

Who is saying otherwise? I think collectivist action is essential to dealing with global problems. I think collectivist thinking is essential to humanity's well-being. I do not think that we should give up individual liberty, and I do not think complex systems such as market economies should be centrally controlled. But problems deserve an honest analysis of all possible solutions to arrive at the ideal outcome. I do not make a religion out of individual liberty or collectivism. They both have their place, and they have both always been with us. We are social creatures, and we naturally feel a social responsibility toward one another.

I understand the appeal of central planning to intelligent people who have some notions of how everything should be done, but I believe it is a failed solution to human problems. It's been attempted many times, and because it becomes corrupted by players positioning themselves for individual power, it fails.

Not true. The formation of modern government has enriched our lives immeasurably. Just compare stateless anarchies with modern governments. Would you prefer living in Haiti or South Sudan? Of course you wouldn't. Central planning has been tried many times, and it has worked many times. It doesn't work for everything, and it should only be used when appropriate.
 
People who get sucked in to the Big Pharma scam are dying by the thousands every day from internal organ failures which are greatly affected by the cumulative toxicities of all our "medicines", while many countries with less "health care" have better health and longer life stats.

Here is an example of how well central planning works from your own post.
 
well, i for one don't believe an article put out with such a biased perspective, published in a journal heavily supported bt pharmaceutical advertising.

Homeopathy has many schools of thought and practice. It has been under assault from allopathic practitioners for many decades, and is difficult to assess by the randomized, double-bind standard. No research funds have ever been allocated to study the treatments, so nobody actually knows anything about it.

Hope is sometimes as good as medicine, maybe better than medicines synthesized from carcinogenic petrochemicals in industries owned by the same cartels that flocked to Germany to evade U.S. antitrust laws In the late 1920s to 30s, who today have most of our legislatures and regulatory agencies in their pockets.

Homeopathy is as easy or hard to assess using double-blind methods as any other medical treatment. Administer the homeopathic medicine to some and placebo to others using double blind randomization protocols. Yes, funds HAVE been allocated to study such treatments, and it is these studies that the article reviews.

Homeopathy has ZERO basis in science. There is NO systematic, objective evidence it is an effective treatment for anything.

Practitioners who peddle it are at best frauds and at worst guilty of manslaughter (for those patients who may die because they have suckered into a homeopathic remedy as opposed to a science-based one), and people who use it are fools.
 
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It would take some time to do a proper response tithe OP report.

It's one thing to be a partisan on the subject, another to be open to understanding.

All alternative medical "arts" lack good scientific basis, but that does not mean there are not valid applications to be found.

The above discussion fails because of hyperbolic rhetoric. At least Jimmy starts out with statements that can be discussed reasonably.

My point of view comes from experience of years in medical research. I could deal with this topic on the level of a member in a peer group. I know some of those people. I know where all the money flows, and why. I believe we have systemic institutional problems that won't be corrected without challenging the present and proposed authorities.

There are no objective, unbiased reports on the subject. The definition of "homeopathy" does not match many practitioners who call themselves thar.

The remarks above given as examples remind me of the same kind of takedown on religion citing obvious
Frauds as proofs against the mere possibility of any reason why perhaps we should consider how we could be held accountable in the ultimate sense.

I would like to see real scientists working on alternative approaches in medical practice.

Instead of smackdowns on the right of peasants to ask questions or make decisions for themselves. I would like fundamental limits on authoritarians in government."
 
It would take some time to do a proper response tithe OP report.

It's one thing to be a partisan on the subject, another to be open to understanding.

All alternative medical "arts" lack good scientific basis, but that does not mean there are not valid applications to be found.

The above discussion fails because of hyperbolic rhetoric. At least Jimmy starts out with statements that can be discussed reasonably.

My point of view comes from experience of years in medical research. I could deal with this topic on the level of a member in a peer group. I know some of those people. I know where all the money flows, and why. I believe we have systemic institutional problems that won't be corrected without challenging the present and proposed authorities.

There are no objective, unbiased reports on the subject. The definition of "homeopathy" does not match many practitioners who call themselves thar.

The remarks above given as examples remind me of the same kind of takedown on religion citing obvious
Frauds as proofs against the mere possibility of any reason why perhaps we should consider how we could be held accountable in the ultimate sense.

I would like to see real scientists working on alternative approaches in medical practice.

Instead of smackdowns on the right of peasants to ask questions or make decisions for themselves. I would like fundamental limits on authoritarians in government."


You make far too many statements like the one in bold for me to take such assertions seriously. You know where ALL the money flows and WHY? Damn babe, that'd be almost too much for any one person to know, besides all the other special knowledge you claim to have, all the other inside info you believe you are privy to. Dare I toss back an accusation of dishonesty?
 
You make far too many statements like the one in bold for me to take such assertions seriously. You know where ALL the money flows and WHY? Damn babe, that'd be almost too much for any one person to know, besides all the other special knowledge you claim to have, all the other inside info you believe you are privy to. Dare I toss back an accusation of dishonesty?

You get annoyed at the wrong people. No way I can help you.

A lot of people are upset with a government that is corrupt, that wastes your money and gives it to people who will comply with the dictates of the very special people who serve its agendas, including govt grant seekers who strengthen the arguments for major stakeholders.

Anyone who believes research grants will be awarded to researchers who will upset Big Pharma cash cows is beyond my help.
 
You get annoyed at the wrong people. No way I can help you.

A lot of people are upset with a government that is corrupt, that wastes your money and gives it to people who will comply with the dictates of the very special people who serve its agendas, including govt grant seekers who strengthen the arguments for major stakeholders.

Anyone who believes research grants will be awarded to researchers who will upset Big Pharma cash cows is beyond my help.

Who the hell are you taking to and what are you talking to them about?

You claim to know a lot of things that it is impossible for you to know. Please, respond by talking about the U.N., big pharma or fascism. That would really help clear things up.
 
Who the hell are you taking to and what are you talking to them about?

You claim to know a lot of things that it is impossible for you to know. Please, respond by talking about the U.N., big pharma or fascism. That would really help clear things up.

This sort of response damages nobody but yourself.
 
This sort of response damages nobody but yourself.

lol, okay

You know where all the money in medical research flows and why. That's a lot of data, my friend. That's all I'm saying. That's only a small fraction of special info you claim to be in on. All I'm saying is, you talk a big talk? Can you back that **** up. I grew up in the ghetto, where talk is cheap.
 
lol, okay

You know where all the money in medical research flows and why. That's a lot of data, my friend. That's all I'm saying. That's only a small fraction of special info you claim to be in on. All I'm saying is, you talk a big talk? Can you back that **** up. I grew up in the ghetto, where talk is cheap.

This sort of take on what I said defines you as a disingenuous hack not interested in the truth. Do you expect me to link some annual budgets, or audits of federal agencies involved in research granting programs, various charities funding research, corporations who fund research privately or donate to universities in several different ways. No, you wouldn't read or analyze all that data if I did. And that data, with ostensibly legit declared purposes, is largely not exactly what it purports to be.

I am familiar enough with the situation to have an informed opinion on it. My opinion is not simplistic, as there are a finite number of generalities or categories that describe a very high percentage of events happening presently.

MVP is something of a troll for starting this thread, as he is feeding off current hot topics in the liberal or progressive political realm, change-agent agenda pushers for expansive government programs proclaiming the path forward to an idealized utopia run by a professionalized bureaucracy that will make people do right in every respect. . . . .

Virtually nobody in mainstream science has ever thought homeopathy was valid science or effective treatment of any illness. If our corporates, charities, or government agencies dish out any money for research on homeopathy, they assuredly are funding a proposal intending to prove the obvious worthlessness of the alternative treatments.
 
This sort of take on what I said defines you as a disingenuous hack not interested in the truth. Do you expect me to link some annual budgets, or audits of federal agencies involved in research granting programs, various charities funding research, corporations who fund research privately or donate to universities in several different ways. No, you wouldn't read or analyze all that data if I did. And that data, with ostensibly legit declared purposes, is largely not exactly what it purports to be.

I am familiar enough with the situation to have an informed opinion on it. My opinion is not simplistic, as there are a finite number of generalities or categories that describe a very high percentage of events happening presently.

MVP is something of a troll for starting this thread, as he is feeding off current hot topics in the liberal or progressive political realm, change-agent agenda pushers for expansive government programs proclaiming the path forward to an idealized utopia run by a professionalized bureaucracy that will make people do right in every respect. . . . .

Virtually nobody in mainstream science has ever thought homeopathy was valid science or effective treatment of any illness. If our corporates, charities, or government agencies dish out any money for research on homeopathy, they assuredly are funding a proposal intending to prove the obvious worthlessness of the alternative treatments.

Babe has a point. I don't know of a single prof that would apply for grant based on testing the efficacy of homeopathy treatments. It's a bad career move.

With that said, I'm not certain on this topic.


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Homeopathy is as easy or hard to assess using double-blind methods as any other medical treatment. Administer the homeopathic medicine to some and placebo to others using double blind randomization protocols. Yes, funds HAVE been allocated to study such treatments, and it is these studies that the article reviews.

Homeopathy has ZERO basis in science. There is NO systematic, objective evidence it is an effective treatment for anything.

Practitioners who peddle it are at best frauds and at worst guilty of manslaughter (for those patients who may die because they have suckered into a homeopathic remedy as opposed to a science-based one), and people who use it are fools.

I take it that you are using the 1796 original theory as the definition of homeopathy. I would like to just use the Greek word roots, and make a fresh start with the concept evoked. Science was pretty new back then, and we were still doing leech therapy for a lot of stuff as "mainstream medicine". We were also using heavy doses of arsenic and such as "medicines". At that time, it is likely that an ineffective placebo was better medicine.

The physical realities of a well-financed, adequately-sized and properly controlled double-blind investigation are such that studies of low-dose therapies will be invisible, statistically. With patient mobility and the cost of personnel, you have to have a dose with an effect that is observable within a small time window. Those constraints do make an objective test of a homeopathic "cure" practically impossible.

Personally, I don't believe there is sufficient plausible coherence with the body of experience we have, or the knowledge we have, to make funding a study of the original three principles of homeopathy a good use of anybody's funds.

However, taking a more liberal view of the term "homeopathy", the idea of something that is like the cause being a possible cure, if applied at a different dose, has some merit. The scientific basis of believing there could be such a relationship in some illnesses or disease states, is real enough. We know about dose-response curves and threshold effects. We know many things in large doses become problematic in our biological systems, even water can cause illness if you drink too much. Many things classed as poisons at one dose, usually very high, are essential to health at another dose that is compatible with our design or nature.

We have several examples of this already accepted as good medical practice. Radiation treatments for cancers, for example. Even very low doses of radiation are thought, generally, to cause cancer. Very high doses, below the level of immediate fatality, are known to result in certain cancers at a very high statistical probability. But we have found a certain range of doses to be therapeutic and useful in treating cancer. In this range, there is still a known risk of causing cancer, but it's a lower risk than the very high certainty of death from an existing and diagnosed cancer.

I have here disputed the merits of the OP study as being anything more than a review of studies, which I might discuss individually as to merit or intent. . .. but certainly I do not expect any study to show a positive result, as we define "homeopathy" as one early nineteenth century theoretician who formulated a hypothesis I consider worthless on its face. I would expect some results comparable to placebo effects.

But I would like to see the general idea of treatments which go with our biochemical systems, exploiting some known dose-dependent response curve studied with actual scientific methods.

With the current statistics of medical malpractice among mainstream providers, and the claimed pervasive side-effects or mortality from even prescribed pharmaceuticals, I would not want to see a lot of mob mentality for lynching any kinds of "medical" practitioners. As in the days of the medicine show fraudsters of over a hundred years ago, it still a good idea to at least be alert, for consumers of medical services and substances to be sorta light on their feet, with a "caveat emptor" wariness. I'd rather not incur damage than try to recover damages in legal tort.

So I sorta think your enthusiasm for bringing charges against homeopathic fraudsters runs the wrong way. The people who turn to them are largely adverse to perceived risks in the mainstream practice of medicine, and many have been failed by the mainstream treatments already. They really aren't a lot different from the people who rejected the leaches and the arsenic of the nineteenth century. If you want to help them, the best way is education. And isn't that what you do?
 
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Babe has a point. I don't know of a single prof that would apply for grant based on testing the efficacy of homeopathy treatments. It's a bad career move.

With that said, I'm not certain on this topic.


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thanks.

That is some impressive commitment to the evidentiary basis of science.
 
Babe has a point. I don't know of a single prof that would apply for grant based on testing the efficacy of homeopathy treatments. It's a bad career move.

With that said, I'm not certain on this topic.


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So, how familiar are you with the world of academic/medical research? I fail to see why researchers would be scared away from testing the efficacy of homeopathy. Homeopathy is a fairly prominent alternative medicine used by, I imagine, millions of people and produces a non-trivial revenue stream for its practitioners. Researchers research all sorts of stuff, much of it which might seem to non-researchers to be pretty silly stuff--and they get research grants to do so. There is definite informational value to researching homeopathy.

Sorry Babe, the comfort you are taking from Dalamon's post, even given that he concedes he's not certain about his post, is a bit misplaced.

Babe, I challenge you, find us a single, blinded, published study that demonstrates the efficacy of homeopathy and that meets the standards of reasonable methodological rigor. Proponents of homeopathy have every incentive to support research demonstrating its efficacy using accepted rigorous (blinded) methods. So where is it?

On the other hand, we have a great deal of research showing the opposite.

Rants referring to vague conspiracies between funding organizations and researchers don't replace evidence. The one side has actual evidence, the other side has none, and not even a good scientific theory as to why homeopathy should work. Honestly, you're embarrassing yourself.
 
So, how familiar are you with the world of academic/medical research? I fail to see why researchers would be scared away from testing the efficacy of homeopathy. Homeopathy is a fairly prominent alternative medicine used by, I imagine, millions of people and produces a non-trivial revenue stream for its practitioners. Researchers research all sorts of stuff, much of it which might seem to non-researchers to be pretty silly stuff--and they get research grants to do so. There is definite informational value to researching homeopathy.

Sorry Babe, the comfort you are taking from Dalamon's post, even given that he concedes he's not certain about his post, is a bit misplaced.

Babe, I challenge you, find us a single, blinded, published study that demonstrates the efficacy of homeopathy and that meets the standards of reasonable methodological rigor. Proponents of homeopathy have every incentive to support research demonstrating its efficacy using accepted rigorous (blinded) methods. So where is it?

On the other hand, we have a great deal of research showing the opposite.

Rants referring to vague conspiracies between funding organizations and researchers don't replace evidence. The one side has actual evidence, the other side has none, and not even a good scientific theory as to why homeopathy should work. Honestly, you're embarrassing yourself.

I agree that Dalamon's impartiality on this subject is ridiculous. But he is right that no researcher would touch it. Why would they? Would astronomers request funding for astrology? Millions of people believe in that too. Would chemists research money for alchemy? No, because it's nonsense. Same applies to homeopathy. It is rightfully ignored.
 
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