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Are the Jazz going to trade Rudy?

KqWIN said:
Rudy is the best player on the team by a mile. Without him, we don’t even make the playoffs. He was the best player in the OKC series, and if Donovan or anyone else could throw the ball in the ocean the Jazz would have won both series against HOU.

John Wall tore his ACL and Achilles. That is a drastic situation, and you still can’t say the alternative of letting him leave is better.

Blake Griffin yielded great value in trade and built they foundation for what they have now.

Steph Curry is Steph Curry. You really think GSW is mad about having Steph Curry and would rather trade him instead? Ridiculous. He could be the worst player in the league for his last season. It doesn’t matter because you got to have Steph Curry on your team for for years.

You have to take the emotional side out of it. It’s about the best path forward. If there is a decent trade package....sure. But there won’t be. I cannot fathom thinking Jordan Clarkson is so important that you lose Rudy over him.
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I think the Jazz should double super max Rudy... give him two supermax deals.
 
I think the question is certainly valid if Favors + Clarkson is > Gobert, because we’re allotting a combined average of about $23M/year on those two over the next few years. So if we don’t think Favors + Clarkson is > Gobert (I certainly don’t), then it creates a curious picture of why we would paint ourselves in a corner of where we would let Rudy walk because we’ve committed enough money to those two to push Rudy out.

I know there’s “big genius, grand scheming” type plans that people that high up get paid for, but I can’t help but think that we‘ve made some of these decisions in a vacuum.
 
infection said:
I think the question is certainly valid if Favors + Clarkson is > Gobert, because we’re allotting a combined average of about $23M/year on those two over the next few years. So if we don’t think Favors + Clarkson is > Gobert (I certainly don’t), then it creates a curious picture of why we would paint ourselves in a corner of where we would let Rudy walk because we’ve committed enough money to those two to push Rudy out.

I know there’s “big genius, grand scheming” type plans that people that high up get paid for, but I can’t help but think that we‘ve made some of these decisions in a vacuum.
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But wait until we connect all those vacuums... we gonna suck so hard.
 
infection said:
I think if we were serious about rim protection, we could have gotten better and cheaper rim protectors. Favors is infinitely better than what we saw last year, but Favors is a good rim guy. Someone like Ekpe is a great rim guy.
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Epke Udoh is not an NBA player. He was just about unplayable when on the Jazz, and is not in the NBA now. I simply do not get the love that he gets here. Favors IS an NBA player, a very good one that is both a better total defender than Epke and can actually handle a post pass or a pick and roll on offense.

But, I guess his book club was cool, though.
 
KqWIN said:
Rudy is the best player on the team by a mile. Without him, we don’t even make the playoffs. He was the best player in the OKC series, and if Donovan or anyone else could throw the ball in the ocean the Jazz would have won both series against HOU.

John Wall tore his ACL and Achilles. That is a drastic situation, and you still can’t say the alternative of letting him leave is better.

Blake Griffin yielded great value in trade and built they foundation for what they have now.

Steph Curry is Steph Curry. You really think GSW is mad about having Steph Curry and would rather trade him instead? Ridiculous. He could be the worst player in the league for his last season. It doesn’t matter because you got to have Steph Curry on your team for for years.

You have to take the emotional side out of it. It’s about the best path forward. If there is a decent trade package....sure. But there won’t be. I cannot fathom thinking Jordan Clarkson is so important that you lose Rudy over him.
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Rudy is -50 against Rockets 2 years ago... this year we had to lose many games not to face Houston..
 
framer said:
Rudy wasn't the one bricking wide open threes. Hell, for what we were shooting, he might have shot better.
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But that's the thing about Rudy. He can't get us out of an offensive rut. He doesn't have the skill set. That's why he's not a supermax player. He can't take over a game offensively.

On defense, his role is to make life harder for the other team. Which he does do well. But he really doesn't stop anybody. Unfortunately, the elite teams work through that harder task and still beat us. Just look at all 3 of our last series losses. Capella and Jokic battled with Rudy. Even Adams played pretty evenly with Rudy in our 1 series win with Rudy. He didn't shut any of those guys down. And the opposing offenses worked a little harder to still score big numbers on us. The opposing stars had some tough nights, but overall, they still got theirs and beat our system.

The Lakers, Heat, Nuggets and others can persevere through the tougher team defense that Rudy will provide. And they will still overcome us because we don't limit them individually enough to win the series. We just slow them down. We lack the perimeter defenders to really stop an elite playoff team.
 
framer said:
Epke Udoh is not an NBA player. He was just about unplayable when on the Jazz, and is not in the NBA now. I simply do not get the love that he gets here. Favors IS an NBA player, a very good one that is both a better total defender than Epke and can actually handle a post pass or a pick and roll on offense.

But, I guess his book club was cool, though.
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1. He's a better rim protector than Favors. That's not debatable. He's also a better perimeter guy and can handle switches quite well 1-5. That's also not debatable vs. Favors. The only thing that's debatable is if his offensive deficiencies limit him enough to not being on the floor. But my comment stands... if we were serious about rim protection, there are better rim protecting options that were cheaper (not debatable). Yes, you sacrifice offense (but we've addressed our offensive issues significantly, in addition to addressing our bench scoring issues), but the difference we're talking about is $10M/year cost difference, and we're a team bleeding assets just to try to duck under the tax, plus perhaps needing to spend more on our actual starting center.

2. Udoh is brought in as a guy who's a tweener between being second and third string, particularly if one is of the "Udoka is ready" persuasion.

3. We have plenty of non-NBA players on this roster and I keep hearing that it doesn't matter (as long as it's DL who has the non-NBA players on the roster), so why does it matter if we suggest people perceived as not being NBA players?

4. A new $36k Toyota Avalon is certainly a better car than a pre-owned 2015 Corolla for $8k. But if it's a commuter car and you're just looking to replace your 1990 Ford Taurus that keeps breaking down, and you make $45k per year and are about to buy your wife a new Escalade...
 
LoPo said:
But that's the thing about Rudy. He can't get us out of an offensive rut. He doesn't have the skill set. That's why he's not a supermax player. He can't take over a game offensively.

On defense, his role is to make life harder for the other team. Which he does do well. But he really doesn't stop anybody. Unfortunately, the elite teams work through that harder task and still beat us. Just look at all 3 of our last series losses. Capella and Jokic battled with Rudy. Even Adams played pretty evenly with Rudy in our 1 series win with Rudy. He didn't shut any of those guys down. And the opposing offenses worked a little harder to still score big numbers on us. The opposing stars had some tough nights, but overall, they still got theirs and beat our system.

The Lakers, Heat, Nuggets and others can persevere through the tougher team defense that Rudy will provide. And they will still overcome us because we don't limit them individually enough to win the series. We just slow them down. We lack the perimeter defenders to really stop an elite playoff team.
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I agree..
 
infection said:
1. He's a better rim protector than Favors. That's not debatable. He's also a better perimeter guy and can handle switches quite well 1-5. That's also not debatable vs. Favors. The only thing that's debatable is if his offensive deficiencies limit him enough to not being on the floor. But my comment stands... if we were serious about rim protection, there are better rim protecting options that were cheaper (not debatable). Yes, you sacrifice offense (but we've addressed our offensive issues significantly, in addition to addressing our bench scoring issues), but the difference we're talking about is $10M/year cost difference, and we're a team bleeding assets just to try to duck under the tax, plus perhaps needing to spend more on our actual starting center.

2. Udoh is brought in as a guy who's a tweener between being second and third string, particularly if one is of the "Udoka is ready" persuasion.

3. We have plenty of non-NBA players on this roster and I keep hearing that it doesn't matter (as long as it's DL who has the non-NBA players on the roster), so why does it matter if we suggest people perceived as not being NBA players?

4. A new $36k Toyota Avalon is certainly a better car than a pre-owned 2015 Corolla for $8k. But if it's a commuter car and you're just looking to replace your 1990 Ford Taurus that keeps breaking down, and you make $45k per year and are about to buy your wife a new Escalade...
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And I'd distill this down even more: if Niang is okay for 14 minutes a night because he's a good shooter, then Ekpe is more than adequate for 14 minutes a night due to his defense. Niang being a terrible defender doesn't mean that he can't shoot. Ekpe not being able to catch a pass doesn't negate his defensive impact. It's hard to offer the lols on Ekpe while tacitly endorsing Niang. I don't know that framer specifically endorses Niang, but the FO decisions tend to have his blessing.
 
FAILED STATE said:
You mean Rudy was hung out to dry by an experimental and under-practiced defensive scheme that took three games to establish whilst all our shooters were bricking the **** out of everything?

ok. Yeah.
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I'd like to see the outcome of some games against Houston where we both 1) shoot the way we historically have against them and 2) don't have the luxury of Gobert's defensive scheme that neutralizes Harden.
 
infection said:
1. He's a better rim protector than Favors. That's not debatable. He's also a better perimeter guy and can handle switches quite well 1-5. That's also not debatable vs. Favors. The only thing that's debatable is if his offensive deficiencies limit him enough to not being on the floor. But my comment stands... if we were serious about rim protection, there are better rim protecting options that were cheaper (not debatable). Yes, you sacrifice offense (but we've addressed our offensive issues significantly, in addition to addressing our bench scoring issues), but the difference we're talking about is $10M/year cost difference, and we're a team bleeding assets just to try to duck under the tax, plus perhaps needing to spend more on our actual starting center.

2. Udoh is brought in as a guy who's a tweener between being second and third string, particularly if one is of the "Udoka is ready" persuasion.

3. We have plenty of non-NBA players on this roster and I keep hearing that it doesn't matter (as long as it's DL who has the non-NBA players on the roster), so why does it matter if we suggest people perceived as not being NBA players?

4. A new $36k Toyota Avalon is certainly a better car than a pre-owned 2015 Corolla for $8k. But if it's a commuter car and you're just looking to replace your 1990 Ford Taurus that keeps breaking down, and you make $45k per year and are about to buy your wife a new Escalade...
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How much of Epke's defensive stats (which were good in very, very limited minutes) were possible because Favors was on the floor with him? It was a while ago, but I seem to remember that Epke was a complete disaster when put on the floor as the solo big man. He sure as hell wasn't defending effectively 1-5 without Favors. Additionally, Dok can catch a damn lob starting day one and stay on the floor as a lone big, if needed, just because of that.

Favors is an actual NBA player which makes him far more valuable than 4 Udoh-like contracts. Jazz aren't playing 12 deep.
 
infection said:
And I'd distill this down even more: if Niang is okay for 14 minutes a night because he's a good shooter, then Ekpe is more than adequate for 14 minutes a night due to his defense. Niang being a terrible defender doesn't mean that he can't shoot. Ekpe not being able to catch a pass doesn't negate his defensive impact. It's hard to offer the lols on Ekpe while tacitly endorsing Niang. I don't know that framer specifically endorses Niang, but the FO decisions tend to have his blessing.
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I'm OK with Niang at about 8 minutes a night against most matchups. Favors will get those extra 6 minutes which makes him more valuable.
 
infection said:
I'd like to see the outcome of some games against Houston where we both 1) shoot the way we historically have against them and 2) don't have the luxury of Gobert's defensive scheme that neutralizes Harden.
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I’d like to see Gobert in a defensive system like Toronto’s. Specifically, one that doesn’t ask him to be an immediate counterpoint to every perimeter defender (i.e. when everything is immediately funneled with Rudy in mind). Can you imagine something like Toronto’s perimeter defense capabilities out in front of Rudy? It would be ****ing insane. I would have a blast watching every game.
 
FAILED STATE said:
You mean Rudy was hung out to dry by an experimental and under-practiced defensive scheme that took three games to establish whilst all our shooters were bricking the **** out of everything?

ok. Yeah.
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The defense was still good overall. And the last 3 games the Rockets were scoring like the Knicks because we got it figured out. Unfortunately, the Jazz were scoring like the Westchester Knicks so we still lost. It could not be more obvious why we lost against HOU twice...we couldn't score. I'm not here to put heat on Mitchell, he was asked to do too much...but it amazes me how he got away unscathed after having one of the worst playoff performances of all time.
 
FAILED STATE said:
I’d like to see Gobert in a defensive system like Toronto’s. Specifically, one that doesn’t ask him to be an immediate counterpoint to every perimeter defender (i.e. when everything is immediately funneled with Rudy in mind). Can you imagine something like Toronto’s perimeter defense capabilities out in front of Rudy? It would be ****ing insane. I would have a blast watching every game.
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If we have Favs+Rudy, we should try out what MIL is doing. The are ahead of the rest of the league in their exaggerated, protect the rim scheme. They concede the most 3's, but it doesn't matter because their rim protection and rebounding is so good. As offenses continue to get better, I don't think the Jazz can rely on the "everyone stay home, Rudy defends everything else" strategy that limits both 3's and shots at the rim. It stretches us too thin.
 

We need to be better about daring certain shooters to take 3s, and repositioning ourselves to help in the driving gaps. Our scheme isn’t helping the skill sets of our perimeter defenders.
 
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