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Gameface

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That is a loophole, and should be fixed.
Sure, that is the private seller loophole. Let's fix it!

Any sale of a gun from one private citizen to another must be completed under the supervision of an FFL who is paid a fee and conducts the background check. I'd go a little further and require a background check on both the seller and buyer, but I would make an exception for transfers to people living within the same household and for immediate family. If immediate family is too lenient then I'd be okay with an exception for guns being transferred as part of an inheritance, and or a free self-service background check in such cases.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing that gun show loopholes are involved less than 1% of the time.

If you care to, Thriller, please explain how the gun show loopholes work in your opinion.

Most guns purchased at gun shows are subject to a background check. Being at a gun show in and of itself does not provide any relief from background checks. People should stop calling it a gun show loophole because it has nothing to do with gun shows specifically. A private citizen can sell their personally owned firearms to another private citizen without a background check. A FFL holder (someone with a license to sell firearms commercially) must do background checks on all guns they sell, even at gun shows. And no, the FFL holder can't claim it is their personal gun and sell it without a background check.
Okay… so end the private citizen loophole. End them all. Make the obtaining of weapons, from AR15s to handguns as hard as our peer nations. Compel gun owners to pass classes. Getting rid of permits is insane. Jack up their health insurance. Sure, you can own a gun, but pay $1,000 bucks more a month in insurance for it. Freedom!!! You can still have a 2nd amendment while regulating guns, discouraging gun ownership (clearly it makes our society less safe), and holding people accountable. Nothing about the 2nd means unfettered access to semi automatic weapons and unlimited ammo with zero training.

Hell, treat guns as Utah treats alcohol for all I care! ;) Why don’t we discourage gun ownership like smoking?

Obviously, letting basically anyone buy any weapon and unlimited ammo in little to no time is working just wonderfully for a country that has more guns than people and more mass shootings in one week than most industrialized countries have in entire years.
 
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Gameface

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Okay… so end the private citizen loophole. End them all. Make the obtaining of weapons, from AR15s to handguns as hard as our peer nations. Compel gun owners to pass classes. Getting rid of permits is insane. Jack up their health insurance. Sure, you can own a gun, but pay $1,000 bucks more a month in insurance for it. Freedom!!! You can still have a 2nd amendment while regulating guns, discouraging gun ownership (clearly it makes our society less safe), and holding people accountable. Nothing about the 2nd means unfettered access to semi automatic weapons and unlimited ammo.

Hell, treat guns as Utah treats alcohol for all I care! ;) Why don’t we discourage gun ownership like smoking?

Obviously, letting basically anyone buy any weapon and unlimited ammo in little to no time is working just wonderfully for a country that has more guns than people and more mass shootings in one week than most industrialized countries have in entire years.
I have said for about 20 years now that alcohol laws in Utah are like gun laws in NYC. They are made by people who consider the item being regulated as evil and unnecessary and who also have no actual knowledge of the technical details of the item or the culture surrounding said item.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
I have said for about 20 years now that alcohol laws in Utah are like gun laws in NYC. They are made by people who consider the item being regulated as evil and unnecessary and who also have no actual knowledge of the technical details of the item or the culture surrounding said item.
The status quo is working out just swell!
 

Gameface

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The status quo is working out just swell!
It isn't. I'm not arguing for that at all. I have100% reached my breaking point on this and I am a FORMER gun rights advocate. The reality is just too horrific for me to continue.

That said, message discipline is important in this issue especially. There are opportunities to make real changes and to win over MANY who have traditionally considered themselves significantly pro 2A. But you don't do that with insults and BS. If you want to persuade gun owners, and I'm talking to you, Thriller, you need to learn the language and you need to learn the culture around guns. If you can't or won't do that then sit this one out and vote or whatever when the opportunity is there. The gun crowd is extraordinarily proud of their firearms knowledge. Too many on that side have extremely sensitive BS detectors for some ****ing clown like Bloomberg to come along and spout off nonsense about guns (that is false) as one of the leading advocates for gun regulation for any pro 2A person to listen to and say "humm, he does have a point there..." Reasonable people who own guns and are part of the pro-gun community are willing to negotiate if only there were reasonable people in the anti-gun camp they could work with. Calling it a "gun show loophole" discredits you immediately in their eyes. Calling an AR-15 an assault weapon discredits you immediately. Not knowing the difference between semi-auto and full-auto discredits you immediately. Calling full metal jacket ammo "armor piercing" and hollow point ammo "cop killer bullets" discredits you immediately.

Lean the language, learn gun culture or STFU. You aren't helping.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
It isn't. I'm not arguing for that at all. I have100% reached my breaking point on this and I am a FORMER gun rights advocate. The reality is just too horrific for me to continue.

That said, message discipline is important in this issue especially. There are opportunities to make real changes and to win over MANY who have traditionally considered themselves significantly pro 2A. But you don't do that with insults and BS. If you want to persuade gun owners, and I'm talking to you, Thriller, you need to learn the language and you need to learn the culture around guns. If you can't or won't do that then sit this one out and vote or whatever when the opportunity is there. The gun crowd is extraordinarily proud of their firearms knowledge. Too many on that side have extremely sensitive BS detectors for some ****ing clown like Bloomberg to come along and spout off nonsense about guns (that is false) as one of the leading advocates for gun regulation for any pro 2A person to listen to and say "humm, he does have a point there..." Reasonable people who own guns and are part of the pro-gun community are willing to negotiate if only there were reasonable people in the anti-gun camp they could work with. Calling it a "gun show loophole" discredits you immediately in their eyes. Calling an AR-15 an assault weapon discredits you immediately. Not knowing the difference between semi-auto and full-auto discredits you immediately. Calling full metal jacket ammo "armor piercing" and hollow point ammo "cop killer bullets" discredits you immediately.

Lean the language, learn gun culture or STFU. You aren't helping.
I think there already is a pretty broad consensus on gun reforms. So I don’t think the problem is those “ignorant mean anti gun” language.

The problem relies in legislative and judicial branches and the lack of incentives to enact good legislation. Enacting reforms at the state level isn’t effective. They need to be enacted at the federal level, so they’re national reforms and nationally enforced. But we can’t enact even basic reforms because of the senate filibuster (that’s what happened after Sandy Hook. Over 85 percent of the public supported the Senate bill but getting 60 senators to agree that the sky is blue is impossible. Especially if it would’ve been a huge win for a black Democratic president), let alone much needed robust reforms and buyback programs. Even when reforms are passed, we need to deal with a 6-3 court majority.
 
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Gameface

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I think there already is a pretty broad consensus on gun reforms. So I don’t think the problem is those “ignorant mean anti gun” language.

The problem relies in legislative and judicial branches and the lack of incentives to enact good legislation. Enacting reforms at the state level isn’t effective. They need to be enacted at the federal level, so they’re national reforms and nationally enforced. But we can’t enact even basic reforms because of the senate filibuster (that’s what happened after Sandy Hook. Over 85 percent of the public supported the Senate bill but getting 60 senators to agree that the sky is blue is impossible. Especially if it would’ve been a huge win for a black Democratic president), let alone much needed robust reforms and buyback programs. Even when reforms are passed, we need to deal with a 6-3 court majority.
Okay cool...

The pro-gun crowd is in control. You think that because the majority of Americans are enthusiastically for meaningless and vaguely defined reforms means you don't need the gun crowd's support. Good ****ing luck with that.

I am being harsh because I want change and that change can only happen with pro-gun support from top to bottom. If you think you can just popular opinion your way past the 2A and our current supreme court then all I can say is that the etiquette is puff, puff, pass.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
Okay cool...

The pro-gun crowd is in control. You think that because the majority of Americans are enthusiastically for meaningless and vaguely defined reforms means you don't need the gun crowd's support. Good ****ing luck with that.
Um. The majority in the pro gun crowd supported this bipartisan Manchin-Toomey bill (not vaguely defined reforms).


I am being harsh because I want change and that change can only happen with pro-gun support from top to bottom. If you think you can just popular opinion your way past the 2A and our current supreme court then all I can say is that the etiquette is puff, puff, pass.
I don’t think this is supported by evidence. The primary problem isn’t a gun owner v gun regulation people. The problem lies in the incentives to obstruct even bipartisan and popular legislation in the Senate.
It’s why we struggle to address all major problems in this country, from health care to climate change to gun regulation. It’s why nearly all of Biden’s legislative accomplishments were spending bills and passed via reconciliation. Bills, such as gun reform or voting rights couldn’t be done with reconciliation so the filibuster would’ve killed them.

As long as the senate filibuster persists to obstruct legislation, it’ll be impossible for a majority to govern this country and address problems. Especially a problem so ingrained in our culture, collides with constitutional rights, and touches nerves with federalism.
 
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gandalfe

Well-Known Member
Um. The majority in the pro gun crowd supported this bipartisan Manchin-Toomey bill (not vaguely defined reforms).



I don’t think this is supported by evidence. The primary problem isn’t a gun owner v gun regulation people. The problem lies in the incentives to obstruct even bipartisan and popular legislation in the Senate.
It’s why we struggle to address all major problems in this country, from health care to climate change to gun regulation. It’s why nearly all of Biden’s legislative accomplishments were spending bills and passed via reconciliation. Bills, such as gun reform or voting rights couldn’t be done with reconciliation so the filibuster would’ve killed them.

As long as the senate filibuster persists to obstruct legislation, it’ll be impossible for a majority to govern this country and address problems. Especially a problem so ingrained in our culture, collides with constitutional rights, and touches nerves with federalism.
The problem, not to put too fine a point on it, lies solely in the gun (NRA & manufacturer, with a considerable amount of overlap) lobbyists. Tey're giving out millions of dollars, steak dinners, and ****jobs to get politicians to vote against it.
 

LogGrad98

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The problem, not to put too fine a point on it, lies solely in the gun (NRA & manufacturer, with a considerable amount of overlap) lobbyists. Tey're giving out millions of dollars, steak dinners, and ****jobs to get politicians to vote against it.
The lobby in general needs to be killed. Like dead dead.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
Side note, no other group enjoys the privilege that the pro gun crowd receives and I’m tired of it. No one else says, “oof, you don’t know the difference between a 504 and IEP? Wow, maybe you shouldn’t comment about education.” Over the last few years, I’ve heard the dumbest things said about education, history and government, K-12 education, and higher education. Yet, no one can tell critics of education anything. The same applies to the stupidity we hear daily about vaccines. Yet, the gun crowd must always be respected, pandered to, and worshipped, no matter how ridiculous they sound (arm teachers, metal detectors at every school door, former vets of wars, barrggg) or else they’ll continue to vote against the interests of society.

I’m all for emphasizing experts and expertise. I absolutely believe that we need to hear more from people who actually know what they’re talking about and hear less from the idiots. But let’s be consistent then.

Unfortunately, I find the rhetoric of the pro gun crowd (not specifically you Game but in general) nitpicking irrelevant and minute details about their penis extenders, used to shut down (gun down) ANY discussion of ANY sensible gun reform that is much needed rather than to be informative and to push the discussion forward. It’s just another form of choking out the clock until the next mass shooting because they don’t want anything to change or interfere with their guns or their pro gun identity. I’m tired of it. Gun nuts and their lobby, vaccine deniers, soulless billionaires, and pro MAGA racist morons aren’t the only ones who matter in this country. The majority of us are sick and tired of these senseless shootings and the bullying of the gun lobby on the legislative branch to obstruct ANY attempt to address this problem.
 
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