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Best Player Lineups for the Jazz

Saint Cy of JFC said:
I mean, he sucks bad.
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I think if you dug in to the numbers more you might find reasons why his offensive rating is higher than others. For example he didn't play in 8 games, those might have been against better defensive teams, or maybe he's played more minutes with Lauri than without.

I think he's also been a better distributor/connector than he's given credit for. His little push shot is also pretty reliable offense when things break down. Like I said, it's surprising, but maybe we're also missing something that he's doing well.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
I was surprised by this when I looked it up:

Our rotation player with the highest offensive rating is Kris Dunn.

He also has the best defensive rating and is our only rotation player with a positive net rating.
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It's not as surprising when you remember how badly Cy hates him

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SoberasHotRod said:
I think if you dug in to the numbers more you might find reasons why his offensive rating is higher than others. For example he didn't play in 8 games, those might have been against better defensive teams, or maybe he's played more minutes with Lauri than without.

I think he's also been a better distributor/connector than he's given credit for. His little push shot is also pretty reliable offense when things break down. Like I said, it's surprising, but maybe we're also missing something that he's doing well.
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He's good against teams who are terrible
 
I’m with Cy on this one. Despite what numbers may say I don’t think he’s all that good. I think he’s benefited from playing against bad teams and in garbage time a lot.

He did have a great 4th quarter against Toronto no doubt about it but as a whole he’s been pretty uninspiring. He has no offensive game he dribbles into the paint and pivots. He hasn’t been great at catch and shoot threes either.
 
Elizah Huge said:
I’m with Cy on this one. Despite what numbers may say I don’t think he’s all that good. I think he’s benefited from playing against bad teams and in garbage time a lot.

He did have a great 4th quarter against Toronto no doubt about it but as a whole he’s been pretty uninspiring. He has no offensive game he dribbles into the paint and pivots. He hasn’t been great at catch and shoot threes either.
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His defense is a million times better than our other guards and that's what separates him. On offense he doesn't do much but he sets up and runs the offense well. He takes shots he is comfortable with which can be boring but usually leads to good things. He also gets the ball into better players hands quickly, which means better team offense as opposed to some guys that dribble the **** out of the ball and try to force things.
 
Ron Mexico said:
His defense is a million times better than our other guards and that's what separates him. On offense he doesn't do much but he sets up and runs the offense well. He takes shots he is comfortable with which can be boring but usually leads to good things. He also gets the ball into better players hands quickly, which means better team offense as opposed to some guys that dribble the **** out of the ball and try to force things.
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THT and Sexton put pressure on the defense with their drives which is desperately needed because we are very limited on the self-creation part. Dunn couldn’t do that even if he wanted to because he’s so limited offensively.
 
Elizah Huge said:
I’m with Cy on this one. Despite what numbers may say I don’t think he’s all that good. I think he’s benefited from playing against bad teams and in garbage time a lot.

He did have a great 4th quarter against Toronto no doubt about it but as a whole he’s been pretty uninspiring. He has no offensive game he dribbles into the paint and pivots. He hasn’t been great at catch and shoot threes either.
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I double checked his catch and shoot threes. He’s shooting it better than I thought so I retract that statement. Seems like the past couple games he hasn’t been shooting it well though.

I think he has a super low ceiling which is why I prefer our other guards over him. You know what you’re getting with him and nothing more. That can be valuable at times but with the guards we have I’m good on that.

It will be interesting to see the guard rotation tonight with everyone healthy.
 
Elizah Huge said:
THT and Sexton put pressure on the defense with their drives which is desperately needed because we are very limited on the self-creation part. Dunn couldn’t do that even if he wanted to because he’s so limited offensively.
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I think you mean they put pressure on the Jazz defense with their reckless drives, which most of the time lead to excellent fast break opportunities for the opponent.
 
Ron Mexico said:
His defense is a million times better than our other guards and that's what separates him.
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Another victim blinded by Dunn's flashy steal hunting...

In real life, Dunn is 7th on the team in Defensive Win Shares, behind both THT and Ochai. In Defensive Box +/-, he's tied for 3rd with THT, just in front of Ochai. The thing is, NONE of these dudes are good defenders. They can't consistently produce good results on that side of the ball.

We don't have any very good defenders this season playing rotation minutes. Even Kessler's advanced metrics have taken a nosedive and he's just a guy now.
 
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Elizah Huge said:
I double checked his catch and shoot threes. He’s shooting it better than I thought so I retract that statement. Seems like the past couple games he hasn’t been shooting it well though.

I think he has a super low ceiling which is why I prefer our other guards over him. You know what you’re getting with him and nothing more. That can be valuable at times but with the guards we have I’m good on that.

It will be interesting to see the guard rotation tonight with everyone healthy.
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is keyonte heathy?

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HermanG said:
Taylor Hendricks the best ortg, drtg and net rating of anyone with 10+ MPG, but its 10 game sample vs 22 for Dunn (Hendricks has more minutes per game than Dunn tho).
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Funnily enough, pretty much all the rest of the advanced stats say neither of these guys affects winning in any way. They're just rotation fodder when they play. Hendricks will hopefully become something (a lot) more with time, while Dunn is what he is at almost 30.

ORTG/DRTG are dangerous stats in a vacuum because they don't care about context at all. The best and worst player on a team may both have a similarly good offensive rating. but one of them is producing for 30 minutes while getting the full defensive attention of the other team, while the other only plays in garbage time, slaying the opposing end-of-benchers when the game has long been decided.
 
Elizah Huge said:
I’m with Cy on this one. Despite what numbers may say I don’t think he’s all that good. I think he’s benefited from playing against bad teams and in garbage time a lot.

He did have a great 4th quarter against Toronto no doubt about it but as a whole he’s been pretty uninspiring. He has no offensive game he dribbles into the paint and pivots. He hasn’t been great at catch and shoot threes either.
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Toronto is also a bad team with the worst PG play in the NBA.
 
I think it's often the case that Dunn does the least bad, and that's a big thing when it comes to our PG's. When it comes to doing the least bad for this team, often that means not taking shots away from Lauri. If you look at the four factors, what's causing that strong ORTG with Dunn is the eFG%. Some of that can be noise, but IMO, what's really happening is that Lauri is getting more shots with Dunn than without him. The offense is terrific with Dunn+Lauri, not so great when it's Dunn without Lauri. THT and Sexton naturally use more possessions than Dunn. Those possessions have to go somewhere.

Lauri's usage and TS with:

Dunn: 28% / 66.5%
THT: 24.6% / 62.2%
Sexton: 24.4% / 61%

The difference in TS may just be noise/luck, so I'm not reading to much into that. But the uptick in usage for Lauri with Dunn....yeah I buy that.

Also worth noting, all of the other scoring guards (THT, Sexton, JC, Keyonte) shoot the ball extremely well from 3FG with Dunn. I think I'll chalk that up more to randomness than Dunn being an extremely good setup guy, but that's a big contributor to his strong ORTG. Methinks there is some truth to Dunn to being a stabilizer, especially compared to the other guards, but it's probably being overstated in the numbers right now. He's the most limited, but probably the one who does the least amount of damage on both ends.
 
KqWIN said:
I think it's often the case that Dunn does the least bad, and that's a big thing when it comes to our PG's. When it comes to doing the least bad for this team, often that means not taking shots away from Lauri. If you look at the four factors, what's causing that strong ORTG with Dunn is the eFG%. Some of that can be noise, but IMO, what's really happening is that Lauri is getting more shots with Dunn than without him. The offense is terrific with Dunn+Lauri, not so great when it's Dunn without Lauri. THT and Sexton naturally use more possessions than Dunn. Those possessions have to go somewhere.

Lauri's usage and TS with:

Dunn: 28% / 66.5%
THT: 24.6% / 62.2%
Sexton: 24.4% / 61%

The difference in TS may just be noise/luck, so I'm not reading to much into that. But the uptick in usage for Lauri with Dunn....yeah I buy that.

Also worth noting, all of the other scoring guards (THT, Sexton, JC, Keyonte) shoot the ball extremely well from 3FG with Dunn. I think I'll chalk that up more to randomness than Dunn being an extremely good setup guy, but that's a big contributor to his strong ORTG. Methinks there is some truth to Dunn to being a stabilizer, especially compared to the other guards, but it's probably being overstated in the numbers right now. He's the most limited, but probably the one who does the least amount of damage on both ends.
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Great post

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Fosto said:
I don't even care if Dunn is good. He's so damn boring to watch. :p
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I'm a bit of a Dunn stan but I can't really disagree

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