Bin Laden is dead

[One Brow]

Man, whatever happened happened. Whether he was killed in a firefight, or put on his knees- whatever happened happened. That is how the raid on the compound turned out.

So in your what if scenario, lets say he was put on his knees and shot in the head. That was either due to the Navy Seal being pumped up and out of control, or due to following orders to do that.

If he was put on his knees, it was illegal. If a SEAL was out of control, he should be tried for it. Not that complicated.

 

[babe]

1) Obama has already agreed to military trials, why would it be different for Osama?
2) The Red Cross hasn't been in to see PFC Manning, but has to be let in to see Osama? I think not.
3) I think highly enough of this country that we could have managed to secure Osama.
4) If they can disregard the laws when dealing with Osama, why should they follow the laws in dealing with you?

This is what every government action outside of Constitutional provisions comes down to. A declaration of war against a defined enemy acting overtly to destroy our principled government by our congress places us on a war footing in dealing with that enemy.

We shouldn't delude ourselves when an organization can build a "fort" or "headquarters" on another nation's soil and we can't trust officials of that nation with either the ability or the will to act "on our side" that it is our ally. What it means in respect to Pakistan is that significant government and/or military people are not our allies.

Even in a declared war, we should take prisoners in preference to just killing them as a matter of self-defining principle. Failure to do that, because of not being committed to the human values that underlie our constitutional principles, is an unacceptable degradation of our principles.

 

[PearlWatson]

Im asking what you think was handled so terribly for you to question our government?...How blunt do I have to be?

For me it was that they released the picture of the Obama Regime supposedly watching it all go down, then Panetta said that the video was blank for 25-30 minutes. Then Hillary says it was the most intense 38 minutes of her life, then she says putting her hand over her mouth like she was in shock was just because of her allergies. It doesn't add up.

 

[SaltyDawg]

the problem is that is not JUSTICE

Yes, that absolutely is justice to the vast majority of Americans.

1) Obama has already agreed to military trials, why would it be different for Osama?
2) The Red Cross hasn't been in to see PFC Manning, but has to be let in to see Osama? I think not.
3) I think highly enough of this country that we could have managed to secure Osama.
4) If they can disregard the laws when dealing with Osama, why should they follow the laws in dealing with you?

1: What is the point of a sham of a military trial that nobody is allowed into? Do you expect them to spill all their intel secrets for the entire world? The trial would be a sham. Why bother? Would it make you feel better if they said they held a 30 second trial on the battlefield before they executed him? because the "trial" he received would not be any better than that. It would be a secret trial, with only the top military people allowed in, with no information being released.
2: Manning is not a POW captured in battle.
3: We could have secured him, sure, but it still would have given the terrorists something to rally behind. As it stands now we followed Islamic law in dealing with Bin Laden. That's a far cry from holding him in some secret location, probably torturing him, giving him a top secret sham of a trial where he has absolutely no chance to win, and eventually announcing he was found guilty and given the death penalty.
4: The better question is, if they can throw the laws out the window when dealing with me, then why should they bend over backwards to treat Bin Laden with kid gloves? The whole reason we have the Patriot act is because of him.

If he was put on his knees, it was illegal. If a SEAL was out of control, he should be tried for it. Not that complicated.

No, you don't do that. If you train a Seal to go at full speed 100% of the time, in order to make him the best of the best, you don't put him on trial when he does that. If this was just some average enemy soldier, then you might have a point. But this was Bin freaking Laden. He was going to die either way, so a soldier doing the deed he was trained to do should not be punished for it.

Plus, this is a top secret navy SEAL team So either you give him a sham of a top secret trial, or you expose all your secrets to the rest of the world. All for what? Because this guy did what he was trained to do? And 99% of Americans would have done the same thing?

No, that guy doesn't deserve a trial, and a trial would not be in the best interest of this country. The whole team deserves an award.

 

[One Brow]

1: What is the point of a sham of a military trial that nobody is allowed into?

Not responsive. The question was why Obama would not be able to give a military trial to Osama, since he is giving military trials to other terrorists. It was hyour scenario where Obama said a military trial was not doable because of campaign promises.

2: Manning is not a POW captured in battle.

That gives teh Red Cross less authority, somehow? Again, not relevant.

3: We could have secured him, sure, but it still would have given the terrorists something to rally behind.

Good think no one rallies behind martyrs. Oh, wait...

As it stands now we followed Islamic law in dealing with Bin Laden. That's a far cry from holding him in some secret location, probably torturing him, giving him a top secret sham of a trial where he has absolutely no chance to win, and eventually announcing he was found guilty and given the death penalty.

Which of those do you think violates the Islamic law we followed, to the degree that the difference is a "far cry"?

4: The better question is, if they can throw the laws out the window when dealing with me, then why should they bend over backwards to treat Bin Laden with kid gloves?

So, you feel it is acceptable for the police to throw the laws out the window when dealing with you?

No, you don't do that. If you train a Seal to go at full speed 100% of the time, in order to make him the best of the best, you don't put him on trial when he does that.

I agree, since part of that training is the proper use fo the techniques and weaponry he receives (at least, so I have been informed by people familiar with such training). Executing people would be breaking the training, not following it.

If this was just some average enemy soldier, then you might have a point. ...

Got it. It's OK to make an exception for bin Laden. Or people with different skin color. Or peolpe with different religious views. Or anyone else we decide to hate.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Some interesting quotes from the Obama 60 Minutes interview:
https://www.zerohedge.com/article/full-barack-obama-60-minutes-interview-and-complete-transcript

And in some ways sending in choppers and actually puttin' our guys on the ground entailed some greater risks than some other options. I thought it was important, though, for us to be able to say that we'd definitely got the guy. We thought that it was important for us to be able to exploit potential information that was on the ground in the compound if it did turn out to be him.

Yeah, sounds like the mission from the start was to bring Bin Laden in alive, lol.

You know, the fact of the matter is this was somebody who was deserving of the justice that he received. And I think Americans and people around the world are glad that he's gone.

Yeah, sounds like taking him alive was Obama's first choice...

On the decision to bury him at sea:

It was a joint decision. We thought it was important to think through ahead of time how we would dispose of the body if he were killed in the compound. And I think that what we tried to do was, consulting with experts in Islamic law and ritual, to find something that was appropriate that was respectful of the body.

Frankly we took more care on this than, obviously, bin Laden took when he killed 3,000 people. He didn't have much regard for how they were treated and desecrated. But that, again, is somethin' that makes us different. And I think we handled it appropriately.

Wow, so they studied this and planned to do it long before the mission. And they sure sound like it was the first choice (mentioning Bin Laden's crimes).

But the fact of the matter is, is that we've been able to kill more terrorists on Pakistani soil than just about any place else.

Yeah, capturing them is obviously the first priority.

KROFT: Is this the first time that you've ever ordered someone killed?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, keep in mind that, you know, every time I make a decision about launching a missile, every time I make a decision about sending troops into battle, you know, I understand that this will result in people being killed. And that is a sobering fact. But it is one that comes with the job.

Wait, I thought we were trying to get him alive? You mean killing him was part of the mission?

As nervous as I was about this whole process, the one thing I didn't lose sleep over was the possibility of taking bin Laden out. Justice was done. And I think that anyone who would question that the perpetrator of mass murder on American soil didn't deserve what he got needs to have their head examined.

Wow, that pretty much says it all. Exactly how I feel.

 

[YB85]

I haven't read through the past 10 or so pages of multiquoted replies, but I have this question for One Brow: Does it really bother you if OBL was summarily executed? Personally, I haven't lost one bit of sleep thinking about whether it was legal or justified. I was more bothered when Clinton and Reno took out David Koresh and the Branch Davidians.

We're not talking about a citizen of a sovereign nation who was taken out. We're talking about a man without a country who declared war on not just America, but all who did not go along with his extreme ideology. You ask that if we can do that to OBL, why can't they do that to (me). The answer is that I am a citizen subject to the protection and rights of the Consitution. Now, if I were to renounce my citizenship and take up arms against the country, I shouldn't be surprised when the SEALs come calling in the middle of the night. OBL was not entitled to a trial. He got exactly what he deserved. In regards to OBL and every member of al qaeda and their related networks, shoot first and let Allah sort 'em out.

 

[TroutBum]

I haven't read through the past 10 or so pages of multiquoted replies, but I have this question for One Brow: Does it really bother you if OBL was summarily executed? Personally, I haven't lost one bit of sleep thinking about whether it was legal or justified.

We're not talking about a citizen of a sovereign nation who was taken out. We're talking about a man without a country who declared war on not just America, but all who did not go along with his extreme ideology. You ask that if we can do that to OBL, why can't they do that to (me). The answer is that I am a citizen subject to the protection and rights of the Consitution. Now, if I were to renounce my citizenship and take up arms against the country, I shouldn't be surprised when the SEALs come calling in the middle of the night. OBL was not entitled to a trial. He got exactly what he deserved. In regards to OBL and every member of al qaeda and their related networks, shoot first and let Allah sort 'em out.

You and Marcus were separated at birth, weren't you?

Who are you to decide what someone deserves, especially when it comes to taking their life?

 

[YB85]

You and Marcus were separated at birth, weren't you?

Who are you to decide what someone deserves, especially when it comes to taking their life?

I'm not someone who is going to sit and cry over whether the world's foremost terrorist had his human rights violated. That's who I am. Do you need a band-aid to put on your bleeding heart, you *****?

 

[TroutBum]

I'm not someone who is going to sit and cry over whether the world's foremost terrorist had his human rights violated. That's who I am. Do you need a band-aid to put on your bleeding heart, you *****?

My heart may be clogged with bong resin and fat, but it's not bleeding. I don't care who he is, he's still a human and deserved to be treated like one, regardless of what kind of human being he was. Hate the sin, love the sinner. (I taught Elder's this week, can you tell?)

 

[YB85]

(H)e's still a human and deserved to be treated like one

Even that's debatable.

 

[LogGrad98]

It was exactly to forestall debates like this the the GC was written, so there was a way to handle these issues humanely when emotions are running high.