Bin Laden is dead

[Bronco70]

lol while where at it lets jsut start shooting all muslims. and people who look like them. because they might have a peace of paper with the that explodes. or a ballpoint NUKE.

seriously a pen is a weapon but no match for a trained seal. unless the penholder might also be a seal then it would be a fight.

The pen is mightier...

 

[Boondocksaint27]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DutchJazzer again. Positive of course.


This is very true. If this were not the case how many whackos out there are writing up plans to blow things up on chunks of cardboard with crayons that we need to hunt down and kill.

So if writing down plans to kill people puts people in "imminent danger", I guess we should have the swat team rush this guy and blow his brains out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SSWhEuWaRc&feature=related

Loggrad, I enjoy your posts. You have some very thought out responses to a lot of other posts out there and I agree with you most of the time. However, I have to disagree with this if we are talking specifically in the context of Osama Bin Laden. He has already shown the ability to carry out plans resulting in the murder of thousands of individuals. His word carries all the weight necissary to inspire or assist in murdering innocents. Therefore, his plans are an imminent threat. If the wackos you listed above had previously carried out plans which murdered innocents then yes, the SWAT teams should be hunting them down.

 

[Boondocksaint27]

Sometimes IEDs explode when you don't want them to (if they are sensitive to work as IEDs). Blowing himself up by accident is something I would think he avoided.

Any and every anti-terrorism training I have been to; whether taught by Feds or local PD, is to "treat every terrorist as if they are a bomb" especially given the Beslan atrocities.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Right, because shooting all people who look like muslims is the same thing as shooting the leader of a terrorist army who has declared war on America and attacked America many times, killing thousands of innocent civilians, and vowed to go out like a martyr if America ever found him.

shooting Muslims that dont are an Immanent threat is the same.

also i do some combat training. and mostly when you pull your gun or riffle it's advisable to use it as a blunt object before shooting in cqb enviroment. now maybe what happened in obl compound wouldnt have allowed for that then again maybe it would.

the Israeli special forces do value human lives. so if someone is not an imminent threat they wont kill. its also the way you train. they do learn to disable any and all attackers.
dont know about the seals if they value human lives.

the thing with soldiers is most people think they are in the business of killing. but soldiers actually are in the business of saving lifes. i hope and think the SEALs are too.
but you might never know what happened if they where ordered to kill or one seal got out of control. or one seal jsut took a calculated shot in the chaos to kill obl. it would be really nice if evidence is rpesented to some sort of international tribunal.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Therefore, his plans are an imminent threat. If the wackos you listed above had previously carried out plans which murdered innocents then yes, the SWAT teams should be hunting them down.

so if you bust down the door of obl compound he is sitting naked behind his desk with some pen and paper writing some world domination plan is he a imminent threat?

or lets say his compound is open he is kneeling hands in the air is he a imminent threat?

i dont care who the guy is if he is in the above mentioned situations nobody is in imminent danger.

 

[SaltyDawg]

so if you bust down the door of obl compound he is sitting naked behind his desk with some pen and paper writing some world domination plan is he a imminent threat?

or lets say his compound is open he is kneeling hands in the air is he a imminent threat?

i dont care who the guy is if he is in the above mentioned situations nobody is in imminent danger.

You'd be the guy saying he isn't an imminent threat when he claps his hands a a "clapper" triggers a bomb and blows your *** up.

The dude vowed to go out as a martyr. He swore he would never be taken alive.

 

[SaltyDawg]

so if you bust down the door of obl compound he is sitting naked behind his desk with some pen and paper writing some world domination plan is he a imminent threat?

or lets say his compound is open he is kneeling hands in the air is he a imminent threat?

i dont care who the guy is if he is in the above mentioned situations nobody is in imminent danger.

You'd be the guy saying he isn't an imminent threat when he claps his hands and a "clapper" triggers a bomb and blows your *** up.

The dude vowed to go out as a martyr. He swore he would never be taken alive.

 

[LogGrad98]

Loggrad, I enjoy your posts. You have some very thought out responses to a lot of other posts out there and I agree with you most of the time. However, I have to disagree with this if we are talking specifically in the context of Osama Bin Laden. He has already shown the ability to carry out plans resulting in the murder of thousands of individuals. His word carries all the weight necissary to inspire or assist in murdering innocents. Therefore, his plans are an imminent threat. If the wackos you listed above had previously carried out plans which murdered innocents then yes, the SWAT teams should be hunting them down.

I agree with you that he was a threat, that is of no doubt. Also that he deserved to be hunted down and brought to justice. My only beef has been with the manner in which is may have been carried out and it's legality.

We keep coming back to the what-if's, and the what-if here was what if he were just sitting there at his desk penning a new plan. Is that imminent danger enough against the Seals to justify them shooting him at his desk? I don't think so. There is a difference between being a dangerous man and being engaged in a dangerous act. As the Great Book points out, Everyone Poops. If we found him in such a condition, TP in hand, legally he should be taken into custody, not shot in the head on the pot.

That was my argument. Sitting at your desk writing plans to kill people is no reason to burst in and shoot you in the head. That is obviously reason enough to take one into custody, but the law requires that we not execute people before a trial, provided we have the means to take them into custody without putting anyone else in danger. If you are writing these plans and they burst in to arrest you and you pull out a Glock and start firing, then you are an imminent threat to the swat team (or whoever) and legally can (and probably should) be shot and killed. But just sitting there pen in hand does not constitute an offense grave enough to summarily execute someone, no matter what you have done in the past or plan to do in the future.

 

[LogGrad98]

Any and every anti-terrorism training I have been to; whether taught by Feds or local PD, is to "treat every terrorist as if they are a bomb" especially given the Beslan atrocities.

That is a good point that had not been brought up yet. Adds another layer of complexity to our hypothetical discussions and validates even more what we all believe, that the Seals acted appropriately in the circumstances.

 

[LogGrad98]

shooting Muslims that dont are an Immanent threat is the same.

also i do some combat training. and mostly when you pull your gun or riffle it's advisable to use it as a blunt object before shooting in cqb enviroment. now maybe what happened in obl compound wouldnt have allowed for that then again maybe it would.

the Israeli special forces do value human lives. so if someone is not an imminent threat they wont kill. its also the way you train. they do learn to disable any and all attackers.
dont know about the seals if they value human lives.
the thing with soldiers is most people think they are in the business of killing. but soldiers actually are in the business of saving lifes. i hope and think the SEALs are too.
but you might never know what happened if they where ordered to kill or one seal got out of control. or one seal jsut took a calculated shot in the chaos to kill obl. it would be really nice if evidence is rpesented to some sort of international tribunal.

He is exactly right about the bold above. That is what they train to do, and it is generally accepted that the Israeli army and the Mossad are about the most well-trained fighting forces in the world.

In krav that is exactly what you are taught in terms of firearms and how to attack and how to meet an attack.

I certainly would hope the Seals were trained somewhat like that too. Either way, I still am of the mind that they handled things correctly in the circumstances. I hope (and am reasonably confident) that the investigations bears that out.

 

[LogGrad98]

Yeah, that's about right.

That is funny. All credibility you may have had just flew out the window. Nice job.

 

[DutchJazzer]

You'd be the guy saying he isn't an imminent threat when he claps his hands a a "clapper" triggers a bomb and blows your *** up.

The dude vowed to go out as a martyr. He swore he would never be taken alive.

he could also have a deadman switch and by killing him you take everyone out.

sometimes a "suicide bomber takedown" helps in these kind of situations its a take down which ends wit the terroist on the floor flat and the hero lying on top of him. sacrificng his life for the rest sort of like jumping on a grenade. but on a much grander scale.

the siraelis have extensive knowledge of this cus sometimes you take the guy out dead man switch boom
sometimes you dont take him out presses the button boom


the suiicde bomber is a last resort. if he has no death man switch it can be done without loss of lie

if he has a deathmans swicth it is done with minimal loss of life.