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BYU - it's time come out of the dark ages.

Qman said:
I want to float a hypothetical scenario. (Note this is not what I believe is happening in the heavily discussed case.)

Let's say that female BYU student decides to violate the Honor Code by drinking at an off-campus party. Let's say some other BYU students recognize the female student and after a few days decide to report the Honor Code violation.

But it turns out later that night out mostly drunk female student is raped at the party by a man.

The next morning the female student goes to the hospital and reports the rape. All the normal police procedures follow.

So the female student is a victim of rape but she also clearly violated the Honor Code by choosing to drink alcohol.

What is correct response?


There are multiple witnesses to a Honor Code violation who have reported it independently. Under normal circumstances the female student would be required to speak the honor code office and agree to a HC probation plan. Or she would be suspended from registering for classes. Or possibly expelled.

In this case, she refuses to speak to honor code office. She has good reasons and the local prosecutor tells the Honor Code to back off.


So does the fact she was a victim of rape, mean that all other accountability must be delayed until the conclusion of the criminal prosecution of her rapist? Where is a reasonable limit?


I believe the Honor Code is not legal obligated to listen to the DA. BYU does have to obey title IX but the Honor Code office has no information about the rape.

Obviously, the rape victim would feel like the Honor Code office unfairly pressuring her.

My point is there are a bunch of really difficult situations that may arise.
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So the Honor Code Office wants to put a priority on the fact that she drank alcohol over the criminal rape case?

First, if the information was reported independently to the Honor Code Office then I think they have every right to do whatever it is that an Honor Code Office does. But!!! They should hold off on doing that until her rape case is settled. They shouldn't demand testimony that could compromise a rape case for a non-criminal alcohol consumption case.

Second, if the police or the title IX office forwarded the Honor Code Office information about a rape victim violating the Honor Code Office should disregard that information and inform the source that it's not appropriate for them to be passing information about the victim of rape outside the criminal proceedings.

No difficult situations have arisen.
 
Qman brings up an interesting point. Things could be more complicated in certain scenarios. I think that so far everyone in this thread believes that if a girl is raped and also broke the honor code then the honor code should maybe look the other way in that instance since a woman was raped. I mean to punish her further for violating the honor code would just be piling on right? That doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

On the other hand... lets say that the honor code looks the other way in scenarios when a woman is raped and also violating the honor code. Could a situation arise where a woman is out drinking, gets turned into/busted by the honor code for drinking and then claims she was raped (when she really wasn't) as a way to avoid getting punished for her honor code violation cause she knows that the honor code has looked the other way in previous instances when a woman was raped so they might look the other way in her case too? I dont know if that would ever happen and maybe the chances of a girl lying about rape to avoid punishment for honor code violations are so small that it shouldn't effect anything and there shouldn't even be a discussion about it. I lean that way and in conclusion think that the honor code should in fact look the other way in a situation where a girl gets raped. Its just too much to have to deal with being violated and then also possibly get kicked out of school or whatever on top of everything else.
 
fishonjazz said:
Qman brings up an interesting point. Things could be more complicated in certain scenarios. I think that so far everyone in this thread believes that if a girl is raped and also broke the honor code then the honor code should maybe look the other way in that instance since a woman was raped. I mean to punish her further for violating the honor code would just be piling on right? That doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

On the other hand... lets say that the honor code looks the other way in scenarios when a woman is raped and also violating the honor code. Could a situation arise where a woman is out drinking, gets turned into/busted by the honor code for drinking and then claims she was raped (when she really wasn't) as a way to avoid getting punished for her honor code violation cause she knows that the honor code has looked the other way in previous instances when a woman was raped so they might look the other way in her case too? I dont know if that would ever happen and maybe the chances of a girl lying about rape to avoid punishment for honor code violations are so small that it shouldn't effect anything and there shouldn't even be a discussion about it. I lean that way and in conclusion think that the honor code should in fact look the other way in a situation where a girl gets raped. Its just too much to have to deal with being violated and then also possibly get kicked out of school or whatever on top of everything else.
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I don't think the Honor Code Office needs to look the other way necessarily. I think they need to prioritize honor code violations in a way that has some connection to reality. Rape is a very serious crime typically committed by a repeat offender. The victims of rape suffer life-long consequences regardless of what punishment the perpetrator may or may not be subjected to. The priority needs to be getting women to report rape and stopping rapists as soon as possible, before there are a half-dozen more victims. Women must be able to come forward without fear of retaliation or hostility from their university, the title IX office or the police.

BYU is choosing to prioritize the Honor Code above protecting victims of rape. There really isn't some greater good they are serving by insisting that rape victims face Honor Code investigations immediately, as though they are preventing some sort of damage by making sure to address drinking, curfew violations, being alone with a member of the opposite sex before letting the criminal case be settled.

So what if someone get's away with violating the honor code? Seriously. I'm not saying BYU shouldn't have an honor code, or that they should allow students to scoff at those standards, but to use rape victims coming forward as a way to expose honor code violations that otherwise would have gone unnoticed is really dumb. It is a form of victim blaming, no question. It is making a clear statement that you got raped because you didn't follow the honor code and we're gonna punish you for putting yourself in a situation where a rape happened.

Like I said, if there is independant information of the honor code violations then sure, follow up on that after the rape case has been settled, or not at all. It isn't like it's some kind of god damn tragedy that someone "got away" with drinking or being out too late. The idea that you would make it more likely that a single rapist gets away with it so that you can hold a rape victim accountable for a trivial non-criminal offense is absurd.

Stopping one rapist is more valuable than preventing one million honor code violations. If anyone doesn't agree with that then I think they're pretty ****ing dumb as far as this subject is concerned.

Fish, I really appreciate your objective approach to this issue. I think you've been very reasonable and I think that as an expectant father of a daughter you've shown a lot of concern for the issue of rape, so please don't take this post as an attack on you, because it's not at all directed at you.
 
Gameface said:
I don't think the Honor Code Office needs to look the other way necessarily. I think they need to prioritize honor code violations in a way that has some connection to reality. Rape is a very serious crime typically committed by a repeat offender. The victims of rape suffer life-long consequences regardless of what punishment the perpetrator may or may not be subjected to. The priority needs to be getting women to report rape and stopping rapists as soon as possible, before there are a half-dozen more victims. Women must be able to come forward without fear of retaliation or hostility from their university, the title IX office or the police.

BYU is choosing to prioritize the Honor Code above protecting victims of rape. There really isn't some greater good they are serving by insisting that rape victims face Honor Code investigations immediately, as though they are preventing some sort of damage by making sure to address drinking, curfew violations, being alone with a member of the opposite sex before letting the criminal case be settled.

So what if someone get's away with violating the honor code? Seriously. I'm not saying BYU shouldn't have an honor code, or that they should allow students to scoff at those standards, but to use rape victims coming forward as a way to expose honor code violations that otherwise would have gone unnoticed is really dumb. It is a form of victim blaming, no question. It is making a clear statement that you got raped because you didn't follow the honor code and we're gonna punish you for putting yourself in a situation where a rape happened.

Like I said, if there is independant information of the honor code violations then sure, follow up on that after the rape case has been settled, or not at all. It isn't like it's some kind of god damn tragedy that someone "got away" with drinking or being out too late. The idea that you would make it more likely that a single rapist gets away with it so that you can hold a rape victim accountable for a trivial non-criminal offense is absurd.

Stopping one rapist is more valuable than preventing one million honor code violations. If anyone doesn't agree with that then I think they're pretty ****ing dumb as far as this subject is concerned.

Fish, I really appreciate your objective approach to this issue. I think you've been very reasonable and I think that as an expectant father of a daughter you've shown a lot of concern for the issue of rape, so please don't take this post as an attack on you, because it's not at all directed at you.
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I agree with you. It seems like you and i both kind of think that when a woman is raped at byu and she was breaking the honor code it would be pretty dumb to punish her for her honor code violation. Thats like kicking someone when they are down. And we both agree that drinking or doing drugs or whatever is not a big deal when compared with rape. I could see someone making an argument that if the honor code decided to treat rape cases like we think they should (basically leave the poor girl alone as it pertains to drinking some alcohol or whatever) that it could lead to false rape accusations in order to get out of trouble with the honor code. I dont think that would happen btw but im sure there are some who might think that could happen. someone could argue that looking the other way for honor code violations for any reason, including rape, could lead to a slippery slope with the honor code and the consistency at which they inforce the honor code and when they dont.
Having said that, im pretty certain that there is already inconsistency in how the honor code is inforced. Im sure that athletes probably dont have to obey the rules as much as someone else does and things like that so imo its perfectly reasonable, understandable, and preferable to be honest, that the honor code look the other way for rape victims.
In your post you talked about maybe delaying the honor code investigation but i actually disagree with that. Delaying it isn't even good enough. I mean if someone was raped and wait a year later and then kick them out of school for breaking the honor code while they were raped (drinking as an example), I still think that is messed up. Just cause they waited a year doesn't make it ok to make them go through more pain from that night all over again a year later by being kicked out of school. Does what posted make sense?
 
fishonjazz said:
I agree with you. It seems like you and i both kind of think that when a woman is raped at byu and she was breaking the honor code it would be pretty dumb to punish her for her honor code violation. Thats like kicking someone when they are down. And we both agree that drinking or doing drugs or whatever is not a big deal when compared with rape. I could see someone making an argument that if the honor code decided to treat rape cases like we think they should (basically leave the poor girl alone as it pertains to drinking some alcohol or whatever) that it could lead to false rape accusations in order to get out of trouble with the honor code. I dont think that would happen btw but im sure there are some who might think that could happen. someone could argue that looking the other way for honor code violations for any reason, including rape, could lead to a slippery slope with the honor code and the consistency at which they inforce the honor code and when they dont.
Having said that, im pretty certain that there is already inconsistency in how the honor code is inforced. Im sure that athletes probably dont have to obey the rules as much as someone else does and things like that so imo its perfectly reasonable, understandable, and preferable to be honest, that the honor code look the other way for rape victims.
In your post you talked about maybe delaying the honor code investigation but i actually disagree with that. Delaying it isn't even good enough. I mean if someone was raped and wait a year later and then kick them out of school for breaking the honor code while they were raped (drinking as an example), I still think that is messed up. Just cause they waited a year doesn't make it ok to make them go through more pain from that night all over again a year later by being kicked out of school. Does what posted make sense?
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I agree with you, but I just don't feel like it's really for me to say how BYU handles the honor code, other than to make sure it doesn't discourage rape victims to come forward, because those rapists might wander farther than the BYU campus and I would hate to think they could have been stopped sooner if the woman wasn't afraid of being blamed for being raped because they broke the honor code.
 
Glad to see BYU woke up and has made some changes. It's a good start, but we are a long ways away from this being righted.

It's too bad it had to come to all this before the GA's that run BYU did anything about it.
 
green said:
Glad to see BYU woke up and has made some changes. It's a good start, but we are a long ways away from this being righted.

It's too bad it had to come to all this before the GA's that run BYU did anything about it.
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Typically the way anything gets done in most organization. It has to get so bad there isn't a choice but to fix it.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app
 
What a terrible thread, started by a terrible poster. Shocking stuff, really...

This situation sucks(ed), but let's be honest here; the honor code has probably saved scores of women (and men) from being victims of these types of crimes -- far more than those who are negatively affected by it. No system is perfect, and there will always be bumps in the road like this one, but once it happens, you learn from it, correct it, and move on.

I'd rather have my daughters at BYU over any school in the country, and if they wanted to go to the U, I'd do everything in my power to talk them out of it.

BYU > Science
 
[MENTION=228]green[/MENTION]

I could slice and dice the Honor Code on specific items based on moral reasoning. True it substitutes a formulaic ritual law for higher conscience. True it falls into the hands of moronic legalists who literally ruin people in distress/turmoil.

But what would a church school look like without a defined behavior standard? If you can't deal with the rules, just go, or send your kids, somewhere else. I am personally glad there is place on earth like BYU. The Chinese elites send all their kids to BYU, where the next generation of leaders is learning to appreciate some good Christian values.
 
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