Coronavirus

[Deleted member 365]

I don’t get why forced vaccination is a big deal? You’ve already been through this no problem. You had to be vaccinated in order to enter the K-12 public education system. What’s the big deal with mandatory Covid vaccination? Do we want this thing to continue to depress our economy, overrun our ICUs, and hurt/kill people? And if we can blow off mandatory Covid vaccines over fweelings/out of control hyper individualism, why not blow off mandatory vaccines for polio, measles, and rubella? Should I be free to blow off wearing a seat belt, driving while under the influence, and running red lights because I feel like these laws violate my juvenile libertarian ideology and concepts of muh freedom? Do we really want to plunge our society into dark times over this? Seems stupid.

People are just too damn bored and too damn spoiled to live in such a great prosperous time where science and health care has led to mostly pain free (extended) lives. Our ancestors would’ve killed to have had access to vaccines. We’ve been spoiled with great health care for so long that we’ve forgotten what has made long healthy lives possible; vaccines and vaccine mandates. Just look at what life expectancy and infant mortality rates were in this country one century ago before all of these “pesky vaccines and their mandates.”

Just had my moderna booster yesterday afternoon. Barely had a sore arm yesterday. Went for a run. Today I’m feeling it a little more. Arm is sore, tired, have some mild aches. Just popped 3 ibprofins and it’ll probably take care of that. Let’s see what happens tomorrow!

 

[One Brow]

I don't think anyone should be forced to be vaccinated and I think it's ridiculous people lose their jobs because of it.

No one is being forced.

It would be ridiculous if people lost jobs because they refused to wear hard hats, or steel-toed shoes, or hair nets. However, we wouldn't be blaming the company that requires the hats, shoes, and/or nets.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

mRNA vaccines are new and I'm sure there are going to be things we will learn about them. Fortunately there is a more traditional vaccine for COVID.

Not for kids. In the United States there is exactly 1 vaccine authorized for kids under the age of 16 and it isn't "a more traditional vaccine". As for "I'm sure there are going to be things we will learn about [mRNA vaccines]", that would be my sentiments as well where my kid is concerned.

As for myself, I'm happily Pfizer'd and am going to get a J&J booster. My switching to J&J for the booster has nothing to do with concerns over mRNA vaccines which I see as technical marvels, but rather research that has shown an advantage to employing a mixed regime.

Mix-and-match COVID vaccines trigger potent immune response

Preliminary results from a trial of more than 600 people are the first to show the benefits of combining different vaccines.

www.nature.com

We don't have the AstraZenneca vaccine here in the US, but the J&J is an adenovirus vaccine like the AstraZenneca and in theory should act similarly.

 

[gandalfe]

I'm conflicted on this issue because I agree that people shouldn't be forced to get a vaccine. I'm just frustrated because the number of people making the wrong choice on this is so large. That puts all of us at greater risk. This isn't just a decision they are making for themselves, it is a decision that can mean that the virus mutates a few more times and potentially overcomes the vaccine and/or becomes much more deadly.

In a perfect world where enough people were getting vaccinated, then, no, people shouldn't be forced to take it. But this is putting EVERYONE at risk, because there are so many idiots who have decided not to get the vaccine, because freedom. That apparently includes the freedom to get sick and die, or not die but be horrible crippled, and to inflict the same consequences on everyone you meet.

Nobody should be forced to wear seatbelts, either, or drink clean water, or eat non-diseased meat, but, apparently there are enough idiots who do those things that we have to have regulations about it.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

That apparently includes the freedom to get sick and die, or not die but be horrible crippled, and to inflict the same consequences on everyone you meet.

Gandalfe, I don't mean to pick on you but you phrased this argument so well that I can't let the opportunity pass. Sorry in advance, but even though I'm pro-vaccine (for adults) I've always thought that argument is funny.

Everyone needs to take the vaccine so they won't spread it to everyone including the vaccinated because even being vaccinated doesn't stop COVID, so to stop COVID everyone needs to be vaccinated as that is the only way to stop the already vaccinated from being infected by COVID.

 

[One Brow]

Gandalfe, I don't mean to pick on you but you phrased this argument so well that I can't let the opportunity pass. Sorry in advance, but even though I'm pro-vaccine (for adults) I've always thought that argument is funny.

Everyone needs to take the vaccine so they won't spread it to everyone including the vaccinated because even being vaccinated doesn't stop COVID, so to stop COVID everyone needs to be vaccinated as that is the only way to stop the already vaccinated from being infected by COVID.

Do you understand that there is a small number of people who are immuno-compromised (the vaccine doesn't work), and another group for whom the vaccine simply doesn't work for random reasons? Don't their lives count?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Do you understand that there is a small number of people who are immuno-compromised (the vaccine doesn't work), and another group for whom the vaccine simply doesn't work for random reasons? Don't their lives count?

The argument goes with "inflict the same consequences on everyone", not a small subset, "everyone". Immuno-compromised, not immuno-compromised, vaccinated, unvaccinated, young, old, EVERYONE will be inflicted by the SAME consequences. According to the argument, being vaccinated doesn't make a difference so the only way to make a difference is to be vaccinated.

 

[fishonjazz]

The argument goes with "inflict the same consequences on everyone", not a small subset, "everyone". Immuno-compromised, not immuno-compromised, vaccinated, unvaccinated, young, old, EVERYONE will be inflicted by the SAME consequences. According to the argument, being vaccinated doesn't make a difference so the only way to make a difference is to be vaccinated.

Why do you say that being vaccinated doesn't make a difference?

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I want to apologize for my earlier tone. It came off a lot more harsh than intended. Way, WAY more harsh than intended.

That said, the statistics you are citing have a lot of issues. The Payne, et al study only found 8 incidents for those aged 4-13 across 7 states. They then extrapolated that into the number you gave by multiplying it by the true number of 4-13 year old kids infected. That would be fine if we knew that number, but we don't and the models estimating that number vary wildly. The researchers could pick whatever study they wanted. The one they chose was from 18 months ago, and the only reason I can imagine for picking a study that old was because it gave numbers that hiked the per-1m number the most.

The bottom line is this, in that study they only found 8 incidents in an huge population that included New York, New Jersey, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Georgia, and Connecticut. In the vaccine trials given to only 2,200 kids, they came up with 9 incidents. What will happen when the vaccine is given to millions of kids? I don't know but I am going to sit back and watch before I line my kid up for that shot. Myocarditis is the dangerous part of MIS-C so this very much is apples-to-apples.

If you have young kids, you see those statistics, and you still want to inject your kid then I won't stand in your way or disparage you. If you don't have young kids but instead want to use your franchise to get the government to do that to my kid against my will, then we're going to have some words.

Again, you need to look at the morbidity numbers, which are produced and readily available. You are misinterpreting the CDC statistics.

The CDC experts expect 56-69 cases of myocarditis per 1MM male children aged 12-17 vaccinated. These same vaccinations will prevent 215 COVID-19 hospitalizations per 1 Million Doses, 71 ICU admissions, and 2 deaths. And this does not include the expected 336 cases of MIS-C caused after COVID-19 infection. Keep in mind that these numbers are calculated as +/- 10% of crude VAERS reporting rates, and include cases of myocarditis, pericarditis, and myopericarditis. The analysis evaluated direct benefit and harm, per million second doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine given in the applicable age group over 120 days.

Because of this clear and convincing data, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices concluded that the benefits of the COVID-19 vaccination to individual persons at the population level clearly outweighed the risks of myocarditis after vaccination.

Directly from the CDC Morbidity and Mortality Week Report on this issue: "Continued use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines in all recommended age groups (referencing report regarding children) will prevent morbidity and mortality that far exceed the number of cases of myocarditis expected"

For children with COVID-19, the risk of myocarditis is 37 times higher for children under 16 compared to those uninfected.

And finally, while more data will come in, most researches believe the higher risk in older male children is tied to puberty and increased testosterone production, which has been confirmed previously in animal studies, which actually leads to a lower risk for males under 12, which is consistent with Pfizer's report that serious adverse events was less than 2 in 1000, with all adverse events found to be unrelated to the vaccine.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Why do you say that being vaccinated doesn't make a difference?

I don't say that. I'm poking fun at that idea. The phrase "inflict the same consequences on everyone" makes that implication. I think that idea is so obviously self-refuting that its practically got its own flashing neon sign pointing out the internal contradiction. I find it amazing that so many people repeat it.

 

[One Brow]

The argument goes with "inflict the same consequences on everyone", not a small subset, "everyone". Immuno-compromised, not immuno-compromised, vaccinated, unvaccinated, young, old, EVERYONE will be inflicted by the SAME consequences. According to the argument, being vaccinated doesn't make a difference so the only way to make a difference is to be vaccinated.

I suppose you could have said that not everyone would be at risk, just those who can't benefit from vaccination, so it's OK if people choose to not be vaccinated and put them at risk. I guess you didn't want to sound like a heartless jerk.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

These same vaccinations will prevent 215 COVID-19 hospitalizations per 1 Million Doses, 71 ICU admissions, and 2 deaths. And this does not include the expected 336 cases of MIS-C caused after COVID-19 infection.

Why wouldn't it? If the vaccinations would prevent that many COVID hospitalizations, and MIS-C is a type of COVID hospitalization, why wouldn't they be included?