Corporate Capitalism

[GoJazz]

This is not a left vs. right issue. Many important public figures have argued that our current system of corporate capitalism leads to fascism. (Jefferson, Roosevelt, And Dwight E.) The Tea Party noticed certain businesses getting special privileges from government. (Bailouts) Now it seems the Occupy Wall Street guys are catching on and have similar complaints although directed at the banks rather then government. My question is simply "Is America to far gone?" Could our issues be fixed by who we elect as president? A change in the House or Senate? A combo of all 3? Or do the corporate interests already have such a stranglehold on America that it would take a revolution to dismantle the current system?

 

[GVC]

I stay as ignorant as possible. I also happen to live in Canada. With that said, there do seem to be some alarming trends south of the border. Having lived in a border zone, I'm well aware of the current state of American law enforcement, and it's ****ing scary. A friend of mine in NW Washington is always repeating about how Homeland Security used to have only 3 helicopter tie-downs (or whatever where they land is called) at his local airport, but now have 14. There was a huge uproar over some DEA incursions into parts of NE Vermont while I was living in Quebec. I was subject to a thorough search WITHOUT CAUSE driving home from Burlington (VT) airport several months back, which included getting verbally abused, frisked and forced to sit out in the cold for about an hour while another car was brought in for the sole purpose of searching my car (and, in all honesty, I wasn't doing anything or acting at all suspicious). America locks up A LOT of people, and seems to be pushing for yet another war in the Middle East (Iran). I feel culturally more at home in the American Suburban West, but I'd rather be in Canada right now.

 

[moevillini]

I stay as ignorant as possible. I also happen to live in Canada....

LOL!!! Is there a connection?

Who's read the book Zeitoun by Dave Eggers, a true account of one New Orleans family's Hurricane Katrina experience? It paints a scary picture of what can happen when there's a total system breakdown.

at any rate, in answer to the question posed in the original post, I say it's more complicated than any of the options you've presented.

 

[Agoxlea]

I stay as ignorant as possible. I also happen to live in Canada. With that said, there do seem to be some alarming trends south of the border. Having lived in a border zone, I'm well aware of the current state of American law enforcement, and it's ****ing scary. A friend of mine in NW Washington is always repeating about how Homeland Security used to have only 3 helicopter tie-downs (or whatever where they land is called) at his local airport, but now have 14. There was a huge uproar over some DEA incursions into parts of NE Vermont while I was living in Quebec. I was subject to a thorough search WITHOUT CAUSE driving home from Burlington (VT) airport several months back, which included getting verbally abused, frisked and forced to sit out in the cold for about an hour while another car was brought in for the sole purpose of searching my car (and, in all honesty, I wasn't doing anything or acting at all suspicious). America locks up A LOT of people, and seems to be pushing for yet another war in the Middle East (Iran). I feel culturally more at home in the American Suburban West, but I'd rather be in Canada right now.

A few of the many reasons I am contemplating a move to B.C.

 

[Gameface]

Not to go off on a tangent, but to call our current system any type of free market capitalism would be wrong. I'm not saying that's what you did, because you call it corporate capitalism, and I think that's a fair description. The way you create a corporate capitalism economy is by destroying free markets and using the power of government to "regulate" in advantages for large corporations while putting up barriers to innovators and small business. Then you can put a cherry on top of it by freeing these large corporations of the consequences of their actions by bailing them out when their gamble fails to pay off.

I'm a libertarian, so I support what most would consider radical reductions in regulation and government control. However, I think the only way to make that work is by greatly increasing the liability large corporations face when they cause harm. I also think that to make it work penalties for lying, cheating, stealing and coercion, need to be increased to the point that a single act of intentional malaicious dishonesty or coercion could destroy even the largest corporation.

Currently we all accept that lying, cheating and stealing are the name of the game in big business and politics. On the other hand, an individual caught with small amounts of crack cocaine can do very hard time and esssentially lose their entire life for it.

It's got to change

 

[babe]

I've been reading Dan Plazak's "A Hole In The Ground With A Liar At The Top". Samuel Clemens used to blackmail stock promoters. Yep, Mark Twain made his wad hyping worthless stocks, bearing others, for pay.

One chapter was about the Nome, Alaska gold placer claims which were the basis of the The Spoilers. Another about the copper barons Henry Rogers/William Rockefeller and their protege Thomas Lawson who learned to corner markets and float numerous corporate stock offerings on the thinnest of facts and the most substantial of claims.

Things haven't changed much in a hundred-plus years. Take a look at the promotions of penny stocks on the internet today. Boomers/Busters at work.

There have always been corrupt government officials, corrupt corporate operators, and corrupt judges. What has gone wrong is that we have lost our great middle class of honest folks who, however ignorant, must be feared by these elite crooks. There is something intrinsically imcompatible between a population indifferent to truth, and freedom. People have got to know when they are being swindled, and have just got to be able to get mad about it. And when they get mad, they have got to remember basic principles of justice, and demand it convincingly enough to scare the corrupt judges enough to compel them to actually punish wrongdoers, and demand integrity from politicians and scare them enough to compel them to actually do some right things.

It's time for a lot of Ron Pauls in every level of government, and even for some of these principled folks in the civil service.

We don't need ignoramuses chanting in unison, we need people who can roll outta bed and go do their jobs who can still just make sure their representatives remember some principles.

Government is always going to reflect the general condition of the people. There has never been a thoroughly honest population that didn't improve their government.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

Not too far gone if we don't sign on to paying the derivatives debt and don't fall for these "solutions" that are going to be offered to us. However, I think the politicians and American society has already passed the corruption rubicon so the chances that we play this smart right now are 0. My guess is you'll see the welfare state built up a little more, it will placate people for awhile, and then they whole thing goes to hell.

The biggest financial news item of the past few weeks that I don't think a lot of people saw was that Bank of America is trying to separate their bad assets into a FDIC covered entity and keep their good assets in the company(https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011...-moving-merrill-derivatives-to-bank-unit.html):

Bank of America Corp. (BAC), hit by a credit downgrade last month, has moved derivatives from its Merrill Lynch unit to a subsidiary flush with insured deposits, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation.

Bank of America’s holding company -- the parent of both the retail bank and the Merrill Lynch securities unit -- held almost $75 trillion of derivatives at the end of June, according to data compiled by the OCC. About $53 trillion, or 71 percent, were within Bank of America NA, according to the data, which represent the notional values of the trades.

This has been the plan all along. Crash everything, then put the US taxpayers on the hook for all the junk paper that is still out there. These banks can't possibly be worth anything right now if they had to mark their derivatives fairly. They are zombie banks.

 

[GVC]

I'm a libertarian, so I support what most would consider radical reductions in regulation and government control. However, I think the only way to make that work is by greatly increasing the liability large corporations face when they cause harm. I also think that to make it work penalties for lying, cheating, stealing and coercion, need to be increased to the point that a single act of intentional malaicious dishonesty or coercion could destroy even the largest corporation.

So what we need is less government regulation and control upheld by more government regulation and control?

 

[Duck Rodgers]

Just to add a little bit to my last post. Bank of America has on record 75 TRILLION dollars in derivatives. Or 5-6 X more than the yearly US economy. 1 bank. More than the entire world's GDP over the course of a year. And Bank of America is only the 6th largest bank in the world:

https://www.banksdaily.com/topbanks/World/2010.html

Nobody actually knows how big the derivatives market is. 10X World GDP? 20X World GDP? Isn't that a huge problem?

 

[Gameface]

So what we need is less government regulation and control upheld by more government regulation and control?

Laws that stop one person from directly harming another person. Not laws aimed at guiding human behavior to a theoretical optimum based not on the benefit of the individual being manipulated, but instead using that individual as a means to an end.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

Things haven't changed much in a hundred-plus years. Take a look at the promotions of penny stocks on the internet today. Boomers/Busters at work.

So being the good capitalist that you are, I hope you play the role of government regulator by shorting those pumps back down to size. For the good of America. I could go citizen's arrest about 15-20 guys that I know personally that are are penny stock pumpers in NYC. I even called them in once a few years ago and the government never did anything about it.

 

[GoJazz]

So what we need is less government regulation and control upheld by more government regulation and control?

I know this is corny but what we need is morals and honesty enforced by a government that enforces contracts.