Dear Fat People

[MVP]

Should fat people be shamed?

So I was reading this story of this Fox reported calling Kelly Clarkson fat - and outrage it created. He later issued apology. Now my question is why she should not be more fat shamed? Millions of dollars and ability to hire personal nutritionist, chef and trainer. And yet she is grossly obese now compared to hot cute girl she was when she won American Idol in 2003. What kind of example she is setting to young people? That it is ok for young successful woman to be fat? Like, seriously she has no excuses for not getting her butt in the gym.

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrit...-clarkson-she-could-stay-off-the-pizza-201544

 

[Siro]

Of course. Short people as well.

 

[Gameface]

So I was reading this story of this Fox reported calling Kelly Clarkson fat - and outrage it created. He later issued apology. Now my question is why she should not be more fat shamed? Millions of dollars and ability to hire personal nutritionist, chef and trainer. And yet she is grossly obese now compared to hot cute girl she was when she won American Idol in 2003. What kind of example she is setting to young people? That it is ok for young successful woman to be fat? Like, seriously she has no excuses for not getting her butt in the gym.

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrit...-clarkson-she-could-stay-off-the-pizza-201544

What if she's happy with he weight? Why does she need to be shamed for it?

I think it's perfectly fine to acknowledge her weight and even to compare he weight over time, but what purpose does shaming her for it serve? Is she hurting anyone other than possibly herself, if she's even really hurting herself (she's most likely less healthy, but that's not everything)?

 

[Deleted member 848]

Because shaming fat people individualizes & depoliticizes the problems facing obesity.

Americans don't have "less will-power" than Europeans-- their higher rates of obesity (and obesity-related illnesses) is representative of the sociopolitical contexts that both continents live in. When we individualize & depoliticize, we are working backwards. It needs to stop.


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[MVP]

Of course. Short people as well.

I get your point but I think it is quite different.

 

[MVP]

, if she's even really hurting herself (she's most likely less healthy, but that's not everything)?

Again, I am mostly worried about influence on teenagers.

 

[Gameface]

I get your point but I think it is quite different.

Right, being fat is more like being ugly than being short...except that being short is kind of ugly in a way too.

 

[Siro]

I get your point but I think it is quite different.

How is it different? Fat people can go the the gym, and short people can wear stilts! I don't understand why you're defending them after all they've done. Hitler? Napoleon? All of those Asian dictators (I presume)?

 

[Gameface]

Again, I am mostly worried about influence on teenagers.

You think her being fat will lead teenages to make the concious decision to become fat? Or you think by seeing how cruel we are to her it will make them think twice about eating that second jelly doughnut?

 

[Siro]

You think her being fat will lead teenages to make the concious decision to become fat? Or you think by seeing how cruel we are to her it will make them think twice about eating that second jelly doughnut?

Do you think if the answer is yes, then it is acceptable? I'm curious. I had a discussion with a friend about the ethics of the anti-tobacco campaign of the last 2 decades. We both agreed that much of it can be considered a form of public shaming, and that they proved effective in significantly decreasing the number of smokers (in part). In fact, they created a cultural change of attitude toward smoking that isn't seen in the rest of the developed world, specially among the young (how does your son feel about it?). But do the ends justify the means? It is a really difficult calculation to make.

 

[Gameface]

Do you think if the answer is yes, then it is acceptable? I'm curious. I had a discussion with a friend about the ethics of the anti-tobacco campaign of the last 2 decades. We both agreed that much of it can be considered a form of public shaming, and that they proved effective in significantly decreasing the number of smokers (in part). In fact, they created a cultural change of attitude toward smoking that isn't seen in the rest of the developed world, specially among the young (how does your son feel about it?). But do the ends justify the means? It is a really difficult calculation to make.

No, I wouldn't be okay with it. I don't think she needs to be sacrificed for the children. She doesn't owe them or any of the rest of us anything. It's her life and her body and she can do with it as she pleases.

 

[Siro]

No, I wouldn't be okay with it. I don't think she needs to be sacrificed for the children. She doesn't owe them or any of the rest of us anything. It's her life and her body and she can do with it as she pleases.

But surely critics also have as much of a right to voice their opinion as they please. Your original argument was that it would not induce change. I am not so sure. I have lived in two different cultures, and I know the depth at which cultural norms influence people's behavior. Forget about vicious shaming and bullying. We're talking about people expressing disapproval of being seriously overweight in order to change social norms. Now assuming it does work, what would be the disadvantage of going down that road, as opposed to accepting fatness as a neutral personal choice?

 

[TroutBum]

But surely critics also have as much of a right to voice their opinion as they please. Your original argument was that it would not induce change. I am not so sure. I have lived in two different cultures, and I know the depth at which cultural norms influence people's behavior. Forget about vicious shaming and bullying. We're talking about people expressing disapproval of being seriously overweight in order to change social norms. Now assuming it does work, what would be the disadvantage of going down that road, as opposed to accepting fatness as a neutral personal choice?

Holy ****, he's got some excellent points here fellas. As a fat person myself, I agree with Siromar and MVP.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Of course. Short people as well.

Mother double ****!

 

[Gameface]

But surely critics also have as much of a right to voice their opinion as they please. Your original argument was that it would not induce change. I am not so sure. I have lived in two different cultures, and I know the depth at which cultural norms influence people's behavior. Forget about vicious shaming and bullying. We're talking about people expressing disapproval of being seriously overweight in order to change social norms. Now assuming it does work, what would be the disadvantage of going down that road, as opposed to accepting fatness as a neutral personal choice?

Well, I suppose the problem I have is shaming a specific person (sacrificing them, emotionally) for the benefit of the group. I don't support the idea that a person owes their self to their society. So it isn't society's right to harm them for non-compliance to the social ideal.

Obesity is a significant problem in the U.S. but I think we've been driven down the wrong road by organizations such as The American Heart Association, who have pushed a low fat diet for decades and who has refused to back off that diet even though it is being proven to have little to no impact on heart health and obesity (and the rise in obesity in the U.S. has followed our adoption of the low fat diet). The unintended consequences of their low fat diet (which Americans have been following more than any of the countries that aren't experiencing an obesity epidemic) is that foods with less nutritional value are being consumed, specifically sugars are being used in place of fat. High sugar consumption is being shown to have many disastrous effects on our health, such as heart disease, obesity and diabetes.

I just can't get down with shaming as a solution to society's ills. I don't like to be cruel to people in that way.

 

[Siro]

Holy ****, he's got some excellent points here fellas. As a fat person myself, I agree with Siromar and MVP.

I'm not personally taking that position. The balance between personal choice and societal obligation is always a tough one for me. I can see both sides of the argument, but I'm not entirely convinced of either.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Is Chris Wallace in good shape? Nah, looks like an average dude. Lay off the Fox News Chris.

 

[TroutBum]

I'm not personally taking that position. The balance between personal choice and societal obligation is always a tough one for me. I can see both sides of the argument, but I'm not entirely convinced of either.

I didn't mean to infer that you were. I was just agreeing with the points you were making, and although I'm with GF on singling out people for shaming, I think MVP has the right idea. It's not OK to be obese. It is ruining people's lives and it can be fixed.

 

[Siro]

Well, I suppose the problem I have is shaming a specific person (sacrificing them, emotionally) for the benefit of the group. I don't support the idea that a person owes their self to their society. So it isn't society's right to harm them for non-compliance to the social ideal.

Obesity is a significant problem in the U.S. but I think we've been driven down the wrong road by organizations such as The American Heart Association, who have pushed a low fat diet for decades and who has refused to back off that diet even though it is being proven to have little to no impact on heart health and obesity (and the rise in obesity in the U.S. has followed our adoption of the low fat diet). The unintended consequences of their low fat diet (which Americans have been following more than any of the countries that aren't experiencing an obesity epidemic) is that foods with less nutritional value are being consumed, specifically sugars are being used in place of fat. High sugar consumption is being shown to have many disastrous effects on our health, such as heart disease, obesity and diabetes.

I just can't get down with shaming as a solution to society's ills. I don't like to be cruel to people in that way.

Aren't you one of those who argue against political correctness? Either way, many libertarian types do. And isn't this "emotional harm" argument what liberals use to defend political correctness? Being fat is not good for you. That is a fact. You're asking that people refrain from bringing up that fact in reference to any single person. Making a choice does not make you immune from criticism. And criticism can induce change in behavior. Considerations for cruelty are very important, but it is not a sufficient reason as criticism does not need to be cruel. And philosophical opposition on grounds of personal choice does not seem sufficient since we all possess that same choice.

 

[franklin]

Do you think if the answer is yes, then it is acceptable? I'm curious. I had a discussion with a friend about the ethics of the anti-tobacco campaign of the last 2 decades. We both agreed that much of it can be considered a form of public shaming, and that they proved effective in significantly decreasing the number of smokers (in part). In fact, they created a cultural change of attitude toward smoking that isn't seen in the rest of the developed world, specially among the young (how does your son feel about it?). But do the ends justify the means? It is a really difficult calculation to make.

That's the sticky point.

Is there a difference between public shaming democratically and religious shaming culturally? You can refer to my bitching about adult seatbelt laws.

I also don't see how public campaigns like anti-tobacco make much of a long run difference. Sure it saves lives immediately but knowledge is knowledge and it has a quaint way of getting out. Who's to say 20-30 years we wouldn't make the exact same change based on knowledge and loving parents trying to teach their children the best? Good thing QSH the parent hater isn't here to answer that one...