Dear Fat People

[TroutBum]

But surely critics also have as much of a right to voice their opinion as they please. Your original argument was that it would not induce change. I am not so sure. I have lived in two different cultures, and I know the depth at which cultural norms influence people's behavior. Forget about vicious shaming and bullying. We're talking about people expressing disapproval of being seriously overweight in order to change social norms. Now assuming it does work, what would be the disadvantage of going down that road, as opposed to accepting fatness as a neutral personal choice?

Holy ****, he's got some excellent points here fellas. As a fat person myself, I agree with Siromar and MVP.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Of course. Short people as well.

Mother double ****!

 

[Gameface]

But surely critics also have as much of a right to voice their opinion as they please. Your original argument was that it would not induce change. I am not so sure. I have lived in two different cultures, and I know the depth at which cultural norms influence people's behavior. Forget about vicious shaming and bullying. We're talking about people expressing disapproval of being seriously overweight in order to change social norms. Now assuming it does work, what would be the disadvantage of going down that road, as opposed to accepting fatness as a neutral personal choice?

Well, I suppose the problem I have is shaming a specific person (sacrificing them, emotionally) for the benefit of the group. I don't support the idea that a person owes their self to their society. So it isn't society's right to harm them for non-compliance to the social ideal.

Obesity is a significant problem in the U.S. but I think we've been driven down the wrong road by organizations such as The American Heart Association, who have pushed a low fat diet for decades and who has refused to back off that diet even though it is being proven to have little to no impact on heart health and obesity (and the rise in obesity in the U.S. has followed our adoption of the low fat diet). The unintended consequences of their low fat diet (which Americans have been following more than any of the countries that aren't experiencing an obesity epidemic) is that foods with less nutritional value are being consumed, specifically sugars are being used in place of fat. High sugar consumption is being shown to have many disastrous effects on our health, such as heart disease, obesity and diabetes.

I just can't get down with shaming as a solution to society's ills. I don't like to be cruel to people in that way.

 

[Siro]

Holy ****, he's got some excellent points here fellas. As a fat person myself, I agree with Siromar and MVP.

I'm not personally taking that position. The balance between personal choice and societal obligation is always a tough one for me. I can see both sides of the argument, but I'm not entirely convinced of either.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Is Chris Wallace in good shape? Nah, looks like an average dude. Lay off the Fox News Chris.

 

[TroutBum]

I'm not personally taking that position. The balance between personal choice and societal obligation is always a tough one for me. I can see both sides of the argument, but I'm not entirely convinced of either.

I didn't mean to infer that you were. I was just agreeing with the points you were making, and although I'm with GF on singling out people for shaming, I think MVP has the right idea. It's not OK to be obese. It is ruining people's lives and it can be fixed.

 

[Siro]

Well, I suppose the problem I have is shaming a specific person (sacrificing them, emotionally) for the benefit of the group. I don't support the idea that a person owes their self to their society. So it isn't society's right to harm them for non-compliance to the social ideal.

Obesity is a significant problem in the U.S. but I think we've been driven down the wrong road by organizations such as The American Heart Association, who have pushed a low fat diet for decades and who has refused to back off that diet even though it is being proven to have little to no impact on heart health and obesity (and the rise in obesity in the U.S. has followed our adoption of the low fat diet). The unintended consequences of their low fat diet (which Americans have been following more than any of the countries that aren't experiencing an obesity epidemic) is that foods with less nutritional value are being consumed, specifically sugars are being used in place of fat. High sugar consumption is being shown to have many disastrous effects on our health, such as heart disease, obesity and diabetes.

I just can't get down with shaming as a solution to society's ills. I don't like to be cruel to people in that way.

Aren't you one of those who argue against political correctness? Either way, many libertarian types do. And isn't this "emotional harm" argument what liberals use to defend political correctness? Being fat is not good for you. That is a fact. You're asking that people refrain from bringing up that fact in reference to any single person. Making a choice does not make you immune from criticism. And criticism can induce change in behavior. Considerations for cruelty are very important, but it is not a sufficient reason as criticism does not need to be cruel. And philosophical opposition on grounds of personal choice does not seem sufficient since we all possess that same choice.

 

[franklin]

Do you think if the answer is yes, then it is acceptable? I'm curious. I had a discussion with a friend about the ethics of the anti-tobacco campaign of the last 2 decades. We both agreed that much of it can be considered a form of public shaming, and that they proved effective in significantly decreasing the number of smokers (in part). In fact, they created a cultural change of attitude toward smoking that isn't seen in the rest of the developed world, specially among the young (how does your son feel about it?). But do the ends justify the means? It is a really difficult calculation to make.

That's the sticky point.

Is there a difference between public shaming democratically and religious shaming culturally? You can refer to my bitching about adult seatbelt laws.

I also don't see how public campaigns like anti-tobacco make much of a long run difference. Sure it saves lives immediately but knowledge is knowledge and it has a quaint way of getting out. Who's to say 20-30 years we wouldn't make the exact same change based on knowledge and loving parents trying to teach their children the best? Good thing QSH the parent hater isn't here to answer that one...

 

[Deleted member 848]

Well, I suppose the problem I have is shaming a specific person (sacrificing them, emotionally) for the benefit of the group. I don't support the idea that a person owes their self to their society. So it isn't society's right to harm them for non-compliance to the social ideal.

Obesity is a significant problem in the U.S. but I think we've been driven down the wrong road by organizations such as The American Heart Association, who have pushed a low fat diet for decades and who has refused to back off that diet even though it is being proven to have little to no impact on heart health and obesity (and the rise in obesity in the U.S. has followed our adoption of the low fat diet). The unintended consequences of their low fat diet (which Americans have been following more than any of the countries that aren't experiencing an obesity epidemic) is that foods with less nutritional value are being consumed, specifically sugars are being used in place of fat. High sugar consumption is being shown to have many disastrous effects on our health, such as heart disease, obesity and diabetes.

I just can't get down with shaming as a solution to society's ills. I don't like to be cruel to people in that way.

SHaming is 100% not the solution to addressing obesity-- and we can do lots to reverse obesity rates w/o shaming a single person.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I didn't mean to infer that you were. I was just agreeing with the points you were making, and although I'm with GF on singling out people for shaming, I think MVP has the right idea. It's not OK to be obese. It is ruining people's lives and it can be fixed.

as long as our approach to fixing it is purely just telling people to work out, eat healthy, and to shame them if they're overweight, nothing will ever get fixed. I mean our current society is a perfect example of this.

 

[Gameface]

Aren't you one of those who argue against political correctness? Either way, many libertarian types do. And isn't this "emotional harm" argument what liberals use to defend political correctness? Being fat is not good for you. That is a fact. You're asking that people refrain from bringing up that fact in reference to any single person. Making a choice does not make you immune from criticism. And criticism can induce change in behavior. Considerations for cruelty are very important, but it is not a sufficient reason as criticism does not need to be cruel. And philosophical opposition on grounds of personal choice does not seem sufficient since we all possess that same choice.

I can understand how that assumption could be made in regard to my opinion of political correctness. I want to go on record that whenever PC is brought up the only thing I have to say about it is, what is the definition of political correctness? It seems like a pretty vague and subjective thing to me. I get what it is in a general sense but I have no specific idea what is and is not politically correct or where that line is drawn.

I value accuracy in communication. When I was a teenager I thought that's what political correctness was so I was in favor of political correctness. I learned that in many cases political correctness actually dictated being less accurate and less specific. I don't support that. I don't support speaking around what I'm trying to say. But the right wing battle cry against political correctness is something else. They're fighting windmills IMO. They aren't fighting for accuracy, they're fighting to be able to say what they want without criticism or consequences. I don't support that at all.

In my first post I said it was fine to state that she is overweight and also okay to discuss the change in her weight over time. But I as an individual have no desire to cause undue pain and suffering to other people. So, I try to consider my actions and not cause pain and suffering when it can be avoided without cost. But I'm perfectly willing to cause pain and suffering if it can't be avoided without cost to my other interests. People are not owed protection from pain and suffering caused by statements of fact and of course any person is free to state their opinion. I would never try to silence anyone. But a person who goes out of their way to make their negative opinion of another person's appearance known is a person I think less of because of it. So it's not something I would do intentionally.

 

[MVP]

You think her being fat will lead teenages to make the concious decision to become fat? Or you think by seeing how cruel we are to her it will make them think twice about eating that second jelly doughnut?

I think we underestimate how much influence celebrities and famous people can have on kids. Now she is fat and that sends a message to kids that, hey if Clarkson with her 30 mil net worth can remain fat, why would I bother to eat healthy and exercise or worry about my health? Would we shame somebody for smoking and doing drugs? Equally unhealthy life style choices IMHO.