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Donald is about to go through some things...


Mongoose said:
Why do you think Bush and Obama and Trump were all hesitant and reluctant to send arms to them then? Do you think those presidents failed by not arming Ukraine to the teeth while they were in office?
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One of those Presidents was different than the other two. Neither Bush or Obama would agree to sending lethal aid to Ukraine. Trump did send arms. The perceived hesitation from Trump over arms shipments was from his apparent attempt at a quid pro quo to get information on the corruption of the Bidens during the Obama administration. It wasn't from fear things would escalate.

History has proved Trump's actions at arming the Ukrainians correct. That period was the only period in which Russia didn't invade one of its neighbors.


View: https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1499055907099099153


Then Biden came in to office, okayed a "minor incursion" into Ukraine and now we have a lot of dead people. Thanks Joe!
 


Al-O-Meter said:
One of those Presidents was different than the other two. Neither Bush or Obama would agree to sending lethal aid to Ukraine. Trump did send arms. The perceived hesitation from Trump over arms shipments was from his apparent attempt at a quid pro quo to get information on the corruption of the Bidens during the Obama administration. It wasn't from fear things would escalate.

History has proved Trump's actions at arming the Ukrainians correct. That period was the only period in which Russia didn't invade one of its neighbors.


View: https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1499055907099099153


Then Biden came in to office, okayed a "minor incursion" into Ukraine and now we have a lot of dead people. Thanks Joe!
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That’s interesting… so you don’t see his hesitation to send weapons until he had selfish reasons to send them as hesitation then? That’s an interesting take- tell me more.

foreignpolicy.com

Trump Resisted Sale of Javelins to Ukraine

Republicans are defending him in the impeachment inquiry by saying he gave more military aid than his predecessor, but it came only after the reluctant…
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
 
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Mongoose said:
Why do you think Bush and Obama and Trump were all hesitant and reluctant to send arms to them then?
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1) Putin had not made his most aggressive moves in the timeframe you are discussing.
2) Until the 2014 revolution, Ukraine was exceptionally corrupt.

Mongoose said:
Do you think those presidents failed by not arming Ukraine to the teeth while they were in office?
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No. Things change, and policies must adapt to the changes.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
"I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do." -President Biden Jan. 19,2022

36 day after President Biden expressed military wishy-washiness, Russia rolled in to Ukraine.
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Attacking Kiev would not be (and was not) a "minor incursion", regardless.
 
One Brow said:
1) Putin had not made his most aggressive moves in the timeframe you are discussing.
2) Until the 2014 revolution, Ukraine was exceptionally corrupt.


No. Things change, and policies must adapt to the changes.
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Obama was still president in 2014, why not send them the weapons after the revolution?
All that time those presidents were being pressured to send aid by those "humanitarians" of the pentagon and department of defense.
Maybe all those presidents were just waiting for selfish reasons to send aid and the military industrial complex was trying to save lives and avoid conflict by "deterring" Russia. How sad...
 
One Brow said:
Sometimes revolutions reduce corruption, sometimes they increase it. I'm sure that level of corruption was not the only reason.
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Yes I'm sure Obama had righteous reasons or perhaps he didn't have enough selfish reasons to send aid and weapons. If only he had listened to those war machine humanitarians.
So you think Ukraine is potentially exceptionally corrupt, yet you still want to continue to send them tens of billions of dollars and prolonging a war that is costing hundreds of thousands of lives?
 
Mongoose said:
That’s interesting… so you don’t see his hesitation to send weapons until he had selfish reasons to send them as hesitation then? That’s an interesting take- tell me more.
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Not at all. What I'm saying is that your claimed motivation is an ahistorical revisionist fantasy. There is zero evidence that Trump was fearful of escalation. The phone call to Zelensky wasn't Trump claiming he had the weapons, the greatest weapons really. The weapons are so good, but they can't be sent. Trump wanted to send the weapons but his advisors said no. It would escalate conflict they said.

That is not how things went down, and Javelins are a single weapon system. We were sending weapons under Trump, and even sending Javelins. I've heard no one but you claim any delay on the part of Trump was over fears of escalation.

Trump sent the weapons and for a time we had peace. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
 
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One Brow said:
Attacking Kiev would not be (and was not) a "minor incursion", regardless.
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True, but it wasn't about what Biden approved of. It's that Biden was projecting weakness. The apparent lack of resolve in the lead up is what I believe Putin was keying on.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
Not at all. What I'm saying is that your claimed motivation is an ahistorical revisionist fantasy. There is zero evidence that Trump was fearful of escalation. The phone call to Zelensky wasn't Trump claiming he had the weapons, the greatest weapons really. The weapons are so good, but they can't be sent. Trump wanted to send the weapons but his advisors said no. It would escalate conflict they said.

That is not how things went down, and Javelins are a single weapon system. We were sending weapons under Trump, and even sending Javelins. I've heard no one but you claim any delay on the part of Trump was over fears of escalation.

Trump sent the weapons and for a time we had peace. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Trump very well cant say he was worried about angering Russia either though can he? Given the russiagate scandal and how dems had been painting him as Putins puppet, that would not have been a very good explanation, right? Escalation is what his advisors feared and mentioned, but that is not what Trump has ever said, you are correct.
I find that is is easier to gage Trump by things he does rather than says... I dunno call me crazy.
 
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Al-O-Meter said:
One thing nobody has accused Trump of was not speaking his mind. If he didn't say it then he wasn't thinking it. No, he was not worried about angering Russia.
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I find that is is easier to gage Trump by things he does rather than says... I dunno call me crazy.
 
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