Down On the Farm

[Handlogten's Heros]

The most frustrating part of this for me is that Forrest isn't delivering any current or potential value. His version of doing nothing is just as crippling as Butler's struggle to integrate. One of those problems problems isn't going to get better, the other could be resolved in few weeks. If it was an Oni situation where the team was +19.5 with him on the court...yeah ok I can see why you keep going to him even though he basically does nothing. If it works it works, but if it doesn't....what is the point? The Forrest minutes aren't going well to begin with and could get worse the more opposing teams see him.

I hate to keep piling on the guy. He's a just a two way player, but that also describes his prospects as a player. I'm not seeing the current or potential value with him.

I think it comes down to a coach viewing Forrest's do nothing approach as predictable and safe. Butler actively messing up may have the same overall effect but it feels worse.

It isn't even like Butler is making that many mistakes... its a foul here and there and just missing shots. It isn't like the nuclear mistakes that Exum would make that were maddening.

Its just wild to me to see how much separation Butler gets and not think "that could be really useful at some point". I get that the shots weren't falling to start with but there is enough history there in college to know they will at some point.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I don't care if Butler plays or not. I care a lot more about winning and making a run this year.

 

[homeytennis]

I don't care if Butler plays or not. I care a lot more about winning and making a run this year.

Quin's rotation moved a guy out tonight. It would seem that guys not playing ought to play with the Stars to stay sharp. Heck Serge Ibaka is putting in time with the Clipps GLeague team to get his mojo back.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Quin's rotation moved a guy out tonight. It would seem that guys not playing ought to play with the Stars to stay sharp. Heck Serge Ibaka is putting in time with the Clipps GLeague team to get his mojo back.

Playing with the stars doesn't help players. I don't care at all if the players go there or not. I also don't care at all if the stars win or lose.

 

[fallenchicken]

I don't care if Butler plays or not. I care a lot more about winning and making a run this year.

I feel like people are so conditioned to not being a contending-team that all they can ever think about is "developing young guys," as if that is the priority. It's not the priority. He's a second round pick, a point guard in his rookie year, we can't jeopardize games while he figures it out.

 

[infection]

I feel like people are so conditioned to not being a contending-team that all they can ever think about is "developing young guys," as if that is the priority. It's not the priority. He's a second round pick, a point guard in his rookie year, we can't jeopardize games while he figures it out.

The point would be well taken if it weren’t Forrest playing instead.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I feel like people are so conditioned to not being a contending-team that all they can ever think about is "developing young guys," as if that is the priority. It's not the priority. He's a second round pick, a point guard in his rookie year, we can't jeopardize games while he figures it out.

Allocating 3% of your playing time to a developing player does not make us OKC and does not jeopardize games. Playing Forrest over JB changes exactly zero right now. What it does is a handful of things… if he shows promise it gives you a young trade asset. It also gives you the ability to trade another guy if he’s ready to step in for 10-15 minutes a night… it also allows you to get him ready for when games actually matter. Hopefully we don’t need to use him but clips weren’t planning on starting Terrence Mann in the playoffs. They don’t get that production if they don’t play him during the year to develop him. Playoff seeding has never mattered less. Maximizing regular season wins is not the goal… just like developing JB is not the goal. Our team is old AF… giving JB 10 minutes a night might be a necessary dose of youth we need.


And I agree with @infection if the goal is to maximize every second of PT to win then go get Dunn and give him those minutes. Playing Forrest is the worst potential allocation of minutes if the ultimate goal is to win a title. He’s not a problem but he’s also not a benefit.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The point would be well taken if it weren’t Forrest playing instead.

In addition to giving Clarkson infinite leash which has been a key in the Jazz’s underwhelming start.

 

[KqWIN]

I think we should take whatever hit that comes with developing Butler....but if we're going to try our hardest to win, Forrest is not that guy either. Oni has a way better case than Forrest. Paschall is also available to play now that Gay is back. I don't agree, but I can see why Butler doesn't get minutes on this type of team. To me, the bigger sin is playing Forrest instead.

Seems like Quin and the Jazz really like Forrest and believe in him. I sensed some BS about the way Locke talked about Butler and Forrest during the preseason. There must be a ton of love for Forrest internally because it sounded like Locke was talking about TB's second jump. I personally don't see it. I think Hughes/Fitts actually have more potential to be a real rotation player down the line. Forrest is good for who he is, which is a 11-15 type player...but his shot is too limiting for him to be a real rotation player.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think we should take whatever hit that comes with developing Butler....but if we're going to try our hardest to win, Forrest is not that guy either. Oni has a way better case than Forrest. Paschall is also available to play now that Gay is back. I don't agree, but I can see why Butler doesn't get minutes on this type of team. To me, the bigger sin is playing Forrest instead.

Seems like Quin and the Jazz really like Forrest and believe in him. I sensed some BS about the way Locke talked about Butler and Forrest during the preseason. There must be a ton of love for Forrest internally because it sounded like Locke was talking about TB's second jump. I personally don't see it. I think Hughes/Fitts actually have more potential to be a real rotation player down the line. Forrest is good for who he is, which is a 11-15 type player...but his shot is too limiting for him to be a real rotation player.

The Locke cold water came very early and I agree. I don't think Oni or Paschall are the guy there because they do need a little ball handling out of the position. Joe looks a little sloppy and if JC gets it then the shot is going up.

Fitts is intriguing to me. I might favor Hughes over Forrest. I just think like a lot of folks here if you are going to carve that time out of the rotation for Forrest... maybe allocate it to someone who is mega disruptive on defense like Dunn or give it to a better development prospect.

I know Quin has been viewed as the development coach but he seems to have very different leashes for different players and doesn't always give the guys room to figure things out.

 

[KqWIN]

The Locke cold water came very early and I agree. I don't think Oni or Paschall are the guy there because they do need a little ball handling out of the position. Joe looks a little sloppy and if JC gets it then the shot is going up.

Fitts is intriguing to me. I might favor Hughes over Forrest. I just think like a lot of folks here if you are going to carve that time out of the rotation for Forrest... maybe allocate it to someone who is mega disruptive on defense like Dunn or give it to a better development prospect.

I know Quin has been viewed as the development coach but he seems to have very different leashes for different players and doesn't always give the guys room to figure things out.

I see your point with Paschall and Oni. I do think we’re a little light on ball handling of Joe or JC are worse than we expect.

The only reason I’m still an Oni backer is because it did work last season. Out of all our players in the past two seasons Oni has the best on court rating in non-garbage time. It’s not because Oni is an amazing player, but it’s a lot better than Forrest who is second worst to Matt freaking Thomas.

If we’re not into development a different defensive disrupter might be better. Dunn is not the guy I would pick because of his injury history, but I get the idea.

I just think that if we’re serious about improving the defense, that needs to be done at a real rotation player level...not the 3 minutes level. I think the role we’re talking about is best used for development.

 

[Hekate]

Oh man, the Forrest love ended as soon as a shinier toy came. The swing is ridiculous.

Forrest knows his role which is the most important thing for a role player. He knows he needs to give up the ball when he crosses the halfcourt and provides much needed ball security in Non-conley minutes. He is also a plus defender. Not great though. His passivity is overstated, he gets 2-3 minutes and doesn't hog the ball like Butler. The defense hasn't been sagging off him yet either like they did last year.

For Butler, any minutes > no minutes. He should be spending time at G-League because extra practice and game time because he isn't getting any with the Jazz if he doesn't improve.