ElRoach0; explaining and defending his beliefs(read "The Official 'Ask a Mormon' Thread" first

[Harambe]

This thread is the sideshoot of the Ask a Mormon thread.

It's where we can finish our conversations there, without de-railing what existed there.

It's also a place to share your personal beliefs about God, religion, and anything else.. but please do so respectfully.

I confess it is this scenario that undermines my respect for progressive governance in the hands of even the very smartest elites I can conjure up in my imagination.

It's like having an Olympic swimmer there to swim the race for your beginning swimming class final test. I think the fundamental goal of the Great Coach is that we develop actual character traits and talents along our way. Everything else is just some kind of incentive program to try to give us a reason to try harder.

So. . . . NO, Coach wouldn't even accept the Apostle Paul if he wanted to take the test on religious understanding in our stead.

My statement was not "God should have accepted it", it was only to show that it could be read entirely differently than the widely held opinion. Unfortunately that is something that we will never be able to prove true or false in this lifetime.

But no matter how you look at it, they had a difference of opinion. A difference of opinion on how many should be able to be brought back. At this level, pre-war, pre gathering of one third of heaven for an army, can you really fault the guy for wanting everyone to come back? Possibly to have so much love for his brothers and sisters as to not see even one turned away? Considering that, shouldn't family not fight for XX thousand years?

We do preach that families can be together forever..

 

[Harambe]

Change the thread title to "A difference of opinion; religion hothead hoedown" please!

 

[Stoked]

I do not fault him for wanting everyone back. I do fault him for taking away free agency. His plan was forced obedience.

 

[babe]

I love this kind of discussion. Nothing about who's the honcho personally, but about the alternative ideas.

I find some solace in the view that Joseph Smith taught on at least one occasion: "Bad Doctrine does not make a bad man". He came to rescue of an old fellow with sincere convictions that were in some way in conflict with the prevailing views, and used the occasion to move the debate up a notch, as I took it.

Lucifer's taking up arms, so to speak, to overthrow Father is probably where there was nothing left to do but throw the fellow out of Heaven. It probably wasn't the hope that somehow everyone could be saved in Round One of mortal probation by providing spycams on every post and a myriad number of thought and deed cops empowered to act pre-emptively to make damn sure nobody ever does anything wrong.

Jesus, whatever His name was, did argue that he would support Father's plan by doing what it would take to bring sinners back, if they wanted to come back. As things have worked out, to my best understanding, there is about one sin that is gonna totally cut someone off from that salvation, specifically the sin of signing up in opposition to the Plan.

The basic Christian belief is that by recognizing the efficacy of the atonement of Christ, and choosing to accept it, we can be forgiven and we can go back to our Father.

The three degrees of glory all are provided for the comfort of folks in varying conditions of understanding, and there isn't much discussion about progression upward given here and now, probably on purpose to encourage us to aim for the "higher ground". But the obvious implication of the LDS temple proxy baptism and endowment program is that people can accept Christ and move towards the higher ground generally.

 

[Harambe]

I do not fault him for wanting everyone back. I do fault him for taking away free agency. His plan was forced obedience.

Oddly enough, I agree. Free agency is great! So great, I don't understand why we try to take it away from each other so often, and seemingly at the drop of a hat.

But I still just don't see it as enough to be upset with the guy for all eternity. My own brother did some pretty terrible things to me, and I'm pretty sure after even 30 years I'll talk to him again.

To me, the entire argument feels like one issue that's just been propagated beyond reason. Shouldn't we be able to sit down, put all that aside, and have a slice of pie?

 

[Stoked]

Oddly enough, I agree. Free agency is great! So great, I don't understand why we try to take it away from each other so often, and seemingly at the drop of a hat.

But I still just don't see it as enough to be upset with the guy for all eternity. My own brother did some pretty terrible things to me, and I'm pretty sure after even 30 years I'll talk to him again.

To me, the entire argument feels like one issue that's just been propagated beyond reason. Shouldn't we be able to sit down, put all that aside, and have a slice of pie?

Which is why I am pro gun rights, pro gay marriage, pro marijuana legalization...

 

[Harambe]

I love this kind of discussion. Nothing about who's the honcho personally, but about the alternative ideas.

I find some solace in the view that Joseph Smith taught on at least one occasion: "Bad Doctrine does not make a bad man". He came to rescue of an old fellow with sincere convictions that were in some way in conflict with the prevailing views, and used the occasion to move the debate up a notch, as I took it.

Lucifer's taking up arms, so to speak, to overthrow Father is probably where there was nothing left to do but throw the fellow out of Heaven. It probably wasn't the hope that somehow everyone could be saved in Round One of mortal probation by providing spycams on every post and a myriad number of thought and deed cops empowered to act pre-emptively to make damn sure nobody ever does anything wrong.

I will also agree that if it was the son of the morning that struck first, action need be taken. But we don't have any further evidence supporting him being the one who actually struck, nor do we have any evidence to the contrary. We're left believing what our predecessors said. The telephone game rarely works with more than 5 people... now how about a chain 6000 years long? There's just too many things that would have to be perfect in order for me to be ok with this.

Jesus, whatever His name was, did argue that he would support Father's plan by doing what it would take to bring sinners back, if they wanted to come back. As things have worked out, to my best understanding, there is about one sin that is gonna totally cut someone off from that salvation, specifically the sin of signing up in opposition to the Plan.

I thought the LDS view on being cast into outer darkness was you had to know for sure(see for yourself) proof God exists, and then deny him. Is that wrong?

The basic Christian belief is that by recognizing the efficacy of the atonement of Christ, and choosing to accept it, we can be forgiven and we can go back to our Father.

The three degrees of glory all are provided for the comfort of folks in varying conditions of understanding, and there isn't much discussion about progression upward given here and now, probably on purpose to encourage us to aim for the "higher ground". But the obvious implication of the LDS temple proxy baptism and endowment program is that people can accept Christ and move towards the higher ground generally.

Well.. higher ground is always nice. And I'd love to believe everyone in the LDS faith gets sealed, does baptisms for the dead, leads a good life because they're preparing for the hereafter.

But never ever count out that there certainly is always a need for people to feel "better than" each other. I just wish there was a better way to separate those that want to "feel better than others" and people "who are simply willing to work for something they want" here on Earth.

 

[Stoked]

Oddly enough, I agree. Free agency is great! So great, I don't understand why we try to take it away from each other so often, and seemingly at the drop of a hat.

But I still just don't see it as enough to be upset with the guy for all eternity. My own brother did some pretty terrible things to me, and I'm pretty sure after even 30 years I'll talk to him again.

To me, the entire argument feels like one issue that's just been propagated beyond reason. Shouldn't we be able to sit down, put all that aside, and have a slice of pie?

Well like I said earlier I do not think he stopped at pitching plan. When he didn't get his way he actively rebelled. I literally believe there was war (whatever that would entail). He refused to give us a choice and everyone ever born refused to give it up.

 

[Siro]

My opinion?

Religion is humanity's worst invention. It permeated the idea that if something gives you comfort, then it's perfectly okay to believe in it as an unequivocal fact, regardless of all evidence to the contrary. It made it so that each legitimate solution to a problem must go through the irrationality of religious worldviews that are programmed into children from the day they're born. It made honest intellectual pursuit far more difficult as any conclusions outside of the norms of one's community would mean exile from everything they've always known.

It also served to muddy-up otherwise clear concepts that naturally emerge from human cognition (faith, morality, duty, etc). And it preyed on mankind's tribal tendencies to create the most divisive force the world has ever known.

I am glad that religion has been losing its teeth in all of the developed world, and I can only hope Muslims and others follow suit.

 

[Harambe]

Well like I said earlier I do not think he stopped at pitching plan. When he didn't get his way he actively rebelled. I literally believe there was war (whatever that would entail). He refused to give us a choice and everyone ever born refused to give it up.

It probably didn't. But just as much as I don't have any solid evidence to support my claim, there's no evidence to dispute it either.

I don't believe everything I'm told unless it's consistent. So my thinking takes a look at God and all his actions, how he talks to people, when he breaks his rules about being a "God of Law", when he forgives, and when he smites. Understanding that guy(we'll call Jareth), and not the guy that's been spoon fed to us as a perfect, loving individual(traditional God), it's really kinda hard to tell what happened, or who instigated.

 

[Stoked]

Mormons and Muslims have been gaining Siro.


@Roach... wouldn't that be a trip if humanity has it backwards and we have God and Satan backwards...

 

[Harambe]

My opinion?

Religion is humanity's worst invention. It permeated the idea that if something gives you comfort, then it's perfectly okay to believe in it as an unequivocal fact, regardless of all evidence to the contrary. It made it so that each legitimate solution to a problem must go through the irrationality of religious worldviews that are programmed into children from the day they're born. It made honest intellectual pursuit far more difficult as any conclusions outside of the norms of one's community would mean exile from everything they've always known.

It also served to muddy-up otherwise clear concepts that naturally emerge from human cognition (faith, morality, duty, etc). And it preyed on mankind's tribal tendencies to create the most divisive force the world has ever known.

I am glad that religion has been losing its teeth in all of the developed world, and I can only hope Muslims and others follow suit.

I can't disagree with you, nor would I. As much good as it's done the world(pioneering educational universities, modern hospitals, involvement in abolishing slavery, charities), it has done great evil(Spanish Inquisition, stripping natives of many, MANY nations of their culture with force of sword).

Every religion I know of bastardizes a practice of at least one previous religion and calls that their own. Just goes to show there's nothing new in the world.

So tell me.. what do you believe in?

@stoked; truly the greatest trick the dev... God ever played?

 

[Bronco70]

This is completely my own opinion, but I think one human shortcoming is trying to understand God with our limited perspective. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to understand Him, but I think we have to be realistic enough to realize that, as mere mortals, we have only our own relatively brief history and experiences to draw context from. We just plain don't know enough to be able to comprehend the complexities of God.

The way I think of it, we are still infantile in regard to our eternal progression. Science says we use just a fraction of our brain's capacity. To me, this hints that, as eternal knowledge goes, we've barely scratched the surface.

If you sit a toddler down and explain in detail how to preform brain surgery, he isn't going to be able to do it. There is a progression of learning that has to occur first.

/my rambling

 

[Siro]

Mormons and Muslims have been gaining Siro.


@Roach... wouldn't that be a trip if humanity has it backwards and we have God and Satan backwards...

I don't care if Mormons are gaining. I find them pretty pragmatic, and they are too few in number. So I can suck it up.

The march of Islam is a big concern for me however. It already has a terrible effect in Europe, and I can only hope it modernizes a lot quicker. :/

 

[Siro]

I can't disagree with you, nor would I. As much good as it's done the world(pioneering educational universities, modern hospitals, involvement in abolishing slavery, charities), it has done great evil(Spanish Inquisition, stripping natives of many, MANY nations of their culture with force of sword).

Every religion I know of bastardizes a practice of at least one previous religion and calls that their own. Just goes to show there's nothing new in the world.

So tell me.. what do you believe in?

@stoked; truly the greatest trick the dev... God ever played?

I don't see it that way. Both charity and cruelty are within human capacity, and they would have existed regardless. My problem with religion goes a lot deeper. It provides a path for justifying what would otherwise be unjustifiable. But let's not dive too deeply into that.

I don't believe in anything outside of nature. I doubt such statements even possess meaning. I believe in the use of logic and reason to evaluate verifiable data to reach valid conclusions about reality that can help us improve our lives.

 

[Stoked]

I don't see it that way. Both charity and cruelty are within human capacity, and they would have existed regardless. My problem with religion goes a lot deeper. It provides a path for justifying what would otherwise be unjustifiable. But let's not dive too deeply into that.

I don't believe in anything outside of nature. I doubt such statements even possess meaning. I believe in the use of logic and reason to evaluate verifiable data to reach valid conclusions about reality that can help us improve our lives.

Religion, like everything else, is a wonderful thing that is often twisted and subverted by men and their weaknesses.

Also Mormonism may not have the numbers to be something that worries you but they will be. I fully expect it to be come one of the main world religions along with Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism...

 

[Siro]

Religion, like everything else, is a wonderful thing that is often twisted and subverted by men and their weaknesses.

Also Mormonism may not have the numbers to be something that worries you but they will be. I fully expect it to be come one of the main world religions along with Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism...

Well, I don't. Mormonism started way too late for that to happen. Mormonism remains strong because it is concentrated in a few communities. But even that will be challenged as the world becomes more connected and advanced in other ways. For example, even something like death might be curable within a century. I don't see how any religion will survive that intact. And even if it doesn't happen, other disruptions will. So no, I'm not worried.

And we've discussed the idea of people twisting religion before. Ideas are only worth what people do with them. However, there is nothing wonderful about teaching people to worship invisible supernatural beings who would reward them for their devotion, in the first place. So religion is harmful from the get go. Twisting it actually tends to temper it. Like how Christianity is pretty tolerant today, compared to when it was at the peak of its power.

 

[JGolds]

Well, I don't. Mormonism started way too late for that to happen. Mormonism remains strong because it is concentrated in a few communities. But even that will be challenged as the world becomes more connected and advanced in other ways. For example, even something like death might be curable within a century. I don't see how any religion will survive that intact. And even if it doesn't happen, other disruptions will. So no, I'm not worried.

And we've discussed the idea of people twisting religion before. Ideas are only worth what people do with them. However, there is nothing wonderful about teaching people to worship invisible supernatural beings who would reward them for their devotion, in the first place. So religion is harmful from the get go. Twisting it actually tends to temper it. Like how Christianity is pretty tolerant today, compared to when it was at the peak of its power.

I like you as a poster, but sometimes i just dont know what to think.

 

[Siro]

I like you as a poster, but sometimes i just dont know what to think.

Science is just the name we give to the systemic pursuit of objective knowledge. I believe in science about as much as I believe in cooking. It isn't something that requires belief. I use science on daily basis to accomplish real and measurable results that anyone can use regardless of their beliefs.

 

[JGolds]

Science is just the name we give to the systemic pursuit of objective knowledge. I believe in science about as much as I believe in cooking. It isn't something that requires belief. I use science on daily basis to accomplish real and measurable results that anyone can use regardless of their beliefs.

Its true and I agree. However, how can you completely disregaurd commetns from the likes of elbert einstin saying "The more i learn of space and the univers the more he belived in a supreme creator" (paraphrased) The workins of the world and universe are like and amazeing cavas that has been perfectally ocistrated, the earth is one of the only places that can sastain life. its been said the odds of everything working out the way they did on our planet to make everything possible is like 1 in 4 trillion... (also paraphrased.)