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Evan McMullin

False dichotomy. We can be in favor of personal holiness and also human rights.



And yet, I don't choose Hillary. I think she's a liar, and corrupt, and her policies are pretty far from what I believe in.


So here's my philosophical treatment of the "false dichotomy". By rules of logic, of course anyone can favor their notions of personal "holiness" or "political correctness", or "science" as guides to the general claim of being "right with the world" somehow, and include notions of human rights in some kind of fondly embraced values.

Jesus had one way of figuring all that, Stalin and other statists have all had theirs. Churches are in the business of selling prefab schema of various kinds for doing all that.

In my view, supporting a statist like McMullin is actually inconsistent with supporting human rights. Of course, I think Hillary is worse by times ten or something, and it's questionable whether Trump will actually do better. As Mark Levin would say, a populist with big ideas claiming vast management prerogatives is inconsistent with US Constitutional notions of limited governmental powers.

My insults above to the LDS "managers" goes to the same point. An authoritarian "Church" exacts its glory from imposing power on its followers invoking claims of exclusive channels of divine guidance. In my world view, a God who places practically infinite worth on human beings must respect human choice..... and provide a personal channel of guidance.... which is in line with the whole idea of innate human rights.

While the modern LDS Church has some roots in the past religious fashions of top-down management like prophets and priests and written scriptural texts, I howl at the modern LDS managers, as I term them excluding the nice personal figureheads who read their teleprompters at Conference nowadays, simply because they have the rule that "authorites" must submit their intended remarks to the review committee and let them revise, and then read what they are handed.

To me, this is "common core" leadership not directed by "God" in any meaningful way, but by managers seeking to achieve public acceptance. That a modern Church should have any kind of central authority is not uncommon, and probably is the fact of every organized religion, means that religions generally do not respect human rights much better than governmental authorities with all their dreams of making the world better somehow.

Romney, Reid, Hatch, Lee, Chaffetz, Bishop, and the air force representative from the Ogden area, are all authoritarian and favor managed human affairs more than human liberty or human rights. It goes with their religion and their sense of LDS community. It is of course a lot to ask Colton to endure my insults to such systems of values. I was sorta expecting my blurbs above to get trashed clear outta JazzFanz community.

Trump has won support from a fair cross section of the United States community by taking exception to the way things have been handled, and with ideas of how to change them. He is it seems his own kind of man. I don't worry about him becoming a Hitler because he is all about free enterprise and prosperity that will come from giving people more choice in their lives, more latitude in their work, and no preaching about personal affairs.

McMullan, like Romney and other Bush camp followers, and the Clinton camp followers, are basically saying we're doing fine and nothing needs to change.

Just put me down as one who has had enough of that old path.

If Hillary "wins", I think this country will shake itself loose of that old path once and for all. The need for change will become overwhelmingly obvious.
 
So here's my philosophical treatment of the "false dichotomy". By rules of logic, of course anyone can favor their notions of personal "holiness" or "political correctness", or "science" as guides to the general claim of being "right with the world" somehow, and include notions of human rights in some kind of fondly embraced values.

Jesus had one way of figuring all that, Stalin and other statists have all had theirs. Churches are in the business of selling prefab schema of various kinds for doing all that.

In my view, supporting a statist like McMullin is actually inconsistent with supporting human rights. Of course, I think Hillary is worse by times ten or something, and it's questionable whether Trump will actually do better. As Mark Levin would say, a populist with big ideas claiming vast management prerogatives is inconsistent with US Constitutional notions of limited governmental powers.

My insults above to the LDS "managers" goes to the same point. An authoritarian "Church" exacts its glory from imposing power on its followers invoking claims of exclusive channels of divine guidance. In my world view, a God who places practically infinite worth on human beings must respect human choice..... and provide a personal channel of guidance.... which is in line with the whole idea of innate human rights.

While the modern LDS Church has some roots in the past religious fashions of top-down management like prophets and priests and written scriptural texts, I howl at the modern LDS managers, as I term them excluding the nice personal figureheads who read their teleprompters at Conference nowadays, simply because they have the rule that "authorites" must submit their intended remarks to the review committee and let them revise, and then read what they are handed.

To me, this is "common core" leadership not directed by "God" in any meaningful way, but by managers seeking to achieve public acceptance. That a modern Church should have any kind of central authority is not uncommon, and probably is the fact of every organized religion, means that religions generally do not respect human rights much better than governmental authorities with all their dreams of making the world better somehow.

Romney, Reid, Hatch, Lee, Chaffetz, Bishop, and the air force representative from the Ogden area, are all authoritarian and favor managed human affairs more than human liberty or human rights. It goes with their religion and their sense of LDS community. It is of course a lot to ask Colton to endure my insults to such systems of values. I was sorta expecting my blurbs above to get trashed clear outta JazzFanz community.

Trump has won support from a fair cross section of the United States community by taking exception to the way things have been handled, and with ideas of how to change them. He is it seems his own kind of man. I don't worry about him becoming a Hitler because he is all about free enterprise and prosperity that will come from giving people more choice in their lives, more latitude in their work, and no preaching about personal affairs.

McMullan, like Romney and other Bush camp followers, and the Clinton camp followers, are basically saying we're doing fine and nothing needs to change.

Just put me down as one who has had enough of that old path.

If Hillary "wins", I think this country will shake itself loose of that old path once and for all. The need for change will become overwhelmingly obvious.

Trump Trump and Trump
 
Trump Trump and Trump

It looks more and more like his critics are off their game. I don't actually think anyone in JF besides me will vote for Trump, and that's fine. Knock yourselves out being too good or too smart to do that. Hoot at the people who will vote for Trump if you like. Stand in line waiting for a doctor when you need one because doctors are quitting, and telling their kids don't ever be a doctor. Fork out your massive deductibles and exorbitant insurance costs as well. Enjoy the next four years just being irrelevant to our elected officials while people take their frustrations to the streets and riots become everyday commonplaces. You're too smart to be bothered with any of all that, and the hundreds of other public decisions that will follow from ideological imperatives instead of common sense.
 
I'm honestly really excited for you Utah voters. Some of us live in Dem/GOP swing states. You guys may turn a state a whole other color and be the most interesting retrospective piece of the whole election. Further, you're getting to establish that Utah is the home for principled conservatism. Even though I'm very liberal, that's an exciting place to be and I'd want my home to be the incubator for good ideas. I'd probably pull the lever for McMullin. For justice.

Go forth and enjoy this unique moment in electoral history. Make it happen!

The silver lining of a McMullin candidacy in Utah (not voting for him, BTW), to me, is not the rejection of Trump by the state but, rather, a possible resounding rejection of Hillary Clinton, being the only state where she finishes third. That would indeed be something to be excited about. I realize that's probably not what you intend as you're extolling the virtues of a state influenced by religious and social issues that you'd otherwise look down on, but that's how I see it.
 
The silver lining of a McMullin candidacy in Utah (not voting for him, BTW), to me, is not the rejection of Trump by the state but, rather, a possible resounding rejection of Hillary Clinton, being the only state where she finishes third. That would indeed be something to be excited about. I realize that's probably not what you intend as you're extolling the virtues of a state influenced by religious and social issues that you'd otherwise look down on, but that's how I see it.
Clinton's numbers won't be overwhelmingly different in Utah if McMullin didn't exist. It's the GOP's candidate who McMullin will be taking votes from. Bill Clinton was third in '92 in Utah and no one cares about that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Utah,_1992
 
For the first time in decades Utah’s electoral votes are realistically up for grabs. Trump, Clinton, and McMullin are all closely bunched together in recent polls. Nate Silver of 538 still has Trump as a big favorite (70 percent win probability), but that’s mainly because some of the older polls have not yet been phased out of his calculations.

Right now Trump and McMullin are co-favorites with Clinton an improbable long shot. She has to hope Trump and McMullin voters remain evenly split and enough Democrats turn out to give her a narrow win. If either Trump or McMullin gains momentum and breaks free from the other, it’s an easy win over Clinton.

The puzzlement is why Trump is still doing as well as he is with Utah Republicans. It’s not like he has a chance to win the election and Republicans have to reluctantly give him their vote to help keep Clinton out the the White House. The vote in Utah is about who gets our six electoral votes and not an actual choice for the next president. Everyone should feel free to vote their conscience. Conservatives can vote McMullin, liberals can vote Clinton, and the confused and paranoid can still vote Trump.

What McMullin offers Utah Republicans is an actual conservative they can feel good about voting for without all the nativist, misogynist and racist baggage Trump brings. A vote for McMullin is a vote for a sane direction forward and a Republican Party that can compete in future presidential elections. Trump is an albatross that needs a symbolic repudiation. Utah is in a unique position, if what’s widely regarded as the most conservative state in the union soundly rejects Trump, it will offer hope to conservatives all across the country and signal a first step away from the dark dystopian politics Trump is trying to impose on the Republican Party.
 
babe has lost all credibility as any sort of libertarian or lover of our individual liberties through his support of Trump.

You're a fraud, babe. A complete fraud.
 
babe has lost all credibility as any sort of libertarian or lover of our individual liberties through his support of Trump.

You're a fraud, babe. A complete fraud.

He has the most bizarre definition of freedom. Anything that has to do with actual expansion of human rights = progressives pushing us back to some moral dark age. Acceptance of the status quo and working toward incremental fixes to problems = hivemind slavery to the world order elites.

White supremacists right to believe in racial superiority, and insurance companies rejecting those with pre-existing conditions = LET FREEDOM RING!
 
Based on my own observations among family and friends and co-workers and such - Trump will easily win the state. People talk about voting for McMillan or Johnson as they believe that makes them look a little better in the eyes of others, but when it gets right down to it, they will vote Republican. Many in my world apparently believe that God is a Republican, and voting any other way is going against God. When it gets right down to it, they will trust God and vote Trump. And I really doubt that my acquaintances are unique. They may say one thing to a pollster, but they will vote another.
 
Based on my own observations among family and friends and co-workers and such - Trump will easily win the state. People talk about voting for McMillan or Johnson as they believe that makes them look a little better in the eyes of others, but when it gets right down to it, they will vote Republican. Many in my world apparently believe that God is a Republican, and voting any other way is going against God. When it gets right down to it, they will trust God and vote Trump. And I really doubt that my acquaintances are unique. They may say one thing to a pollster, but they will vote another.
This is the shy Trump voter theory. It didn’t hold true in the Republican primaries, although, admittedly, the Trump brand is more toxic now than it was as recently as last May. Maybe Utah will prove the polls wrong and Trump will win easily. I’ve assumed that would be the result all along as well, however, recent polls showing McMullin even or slightly ahead of Trump do give me some hope that Utah will not give in to mindless partisan voting.

Here’s an article on the lack of shy voting in the primaries:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-supporters-probably-arent-lying-to-pollsters/

And a more recent article addressing the theory and it’s likely lack of impact on the general election:

https://time.com/4545399/donald-trump-election-voting-theories/
 
The silver lining of a McMullin candidacy in Utah (not voting for him, BTW), to me, is not the rejection of Trump by the state but, rather, a possible resounding rejection of Hillary Clinton, being the only state where she finishes third. That would indeed be something to be excited about. I realize that's probably not what you intend as you're extolling the virtues of a state influenced by religious and social issues that you'd otherwise look down on, but that's how I see it.

I understand why you'd be suspicious of my "extolling the virtues" of the religious and social issues given that I don't agree with them so I'll expand a little on that.

In my mind, support of those issues and values through a protest vote that has a real power to be meaningful because it affects the map is a very sincere proposition that lacks any cynicism. Our primary choices are very insincere politicians and being a place that demands sincerity is unique and refreshing. It speaks well of the state's character. I will always take the honest push over the dishonest "at least he's one of ours." Utah can be proud of being a peculiar people when the results and the underlying rationale are based in the idea that Trump inflicts too much indignity to reflect the values of the people.

If anything, that is a bridge to more bipartisan cooperation. It proves that the other side isn't evil because they don't tolerate it in their own ranks.
 
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