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For all the haters and boo birds...

idiot said:
I know exactly what you mean, but I also feel this is very nearly a dangerous philosophy. It feels only one step removed (because booing is anonymous and limited in time and space) from the "I love you, therefore I beat /psychologically abuse you" argument.

It's nearly the same argument for why spousal abuse was tolerated for so long in this country: it's the idea that love and hate are essentially the same emotion; we can't really love unless we're also capable of intense damage to the object of our love (because we love them so much and so strongly want them to please us).
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This is specious and then some.

As a fan, there has to be some way for us to express our displeasure without being told that we're bad fans or not fans at all. It's not just sports either. My wife just bought me a floor ticket to see Iron Maiden in August. I'm going with my groomsmen and we're all big fans. 3 teachers and a chemist. ;) Now, Iron Maiden are drug-free and work hard as any band and put on an awesome show, but if they did for some reason come on stage and were sloppy and missing notes and generally just going through the motions, you don't think we should boo? You don't think we have any right to express displeasure with the band not trying hard, even though they just divested all of us of 100 bucks?

Entertainment is entertainment. You pay expecting something. Generally, that something is that people entertaining you are putting in the effort. I don't love every Iron Maiden song and I know Jazz will lose games. That's fine. I'm just looking for effort. If the effort is not there, is there something I can do to express displeasure other than stop following the band/team? That's usually how athletes and musicians react if you try to stop buying their product. They generally say "you're not really a fan" if you don't unconditionally follow them. It just seems that the logic here is "gives us your money and shut up." I don't want to stop being a Jazz fan or stop spending money on the team. Do I have no other option except to shut up or leave?
 
infection said:
Whether or not it’s stupid to get worked up about booing, or whether or not it’s a huge atrocity with deep meaning if someone did boo.

People are conflating the idea that it’s appropriate to have thicker skin with the idea that we condone booing.

Ergo, a guy tells a girl that she’s ugly. She pulls out a knife and stabs him. Her response was not justified, but that doesn’t make him right. You see where this is going. Sometimes there are situations that aren’t black and white and both parties are wrong.
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Hmm.

For the record, there are people on here that have support the idea of booing one's own team.
 
JimLes said:
This is specious and then some.

As a fan, there has to be some way for us to express our displeasure without being told that we're bad fans or not fans at all. It's not just sports either. My wife just bought me a floor ticket to see Iron Maiden in August. I'm going with my groomsmen and we're all big fans. 3 teachers and a chemist. ;) Now, Iron Maiden are drug-free and work hard as any band and put on an awesome show, but if they did for some reason come on stage and were sloppy and missing notes and generally just going through the motions, you don't think we should boo? You don't think we have any right to express displeasure with the band not trying hard, even though they just divested all of us of 100 bucks?

Entertainment is entertainment. You pay expecting something. Generally, that something is that people entertaining you are putting in the effort. I don't love every Iron Maiden song and I know Jazz will lose games. That's fine. I'm just looking for effort. If the effort is not there, is there something I can do to express displeasure other than stop following the band/team? That's usually how athletes and musicians react if you try to stop buying their product. They generally say "you're not really a fan" if you don't unconditionally follow them. It just seems that the logic here is "gives us your money and shut up." I don't want to stop being a Jazz fan or stop spending money on the team. Do I have no other option except to shut up or leave?
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The parts of your original comment that I had trouble with are the parts implying that if you have true commitment/love for the team, you're naturally going to have the possibility of deeply negative feelings as well (otherwise, as you said, you're probably a "casual"). I said I know where you're coming from because I sometimes feel the same in my own fanship, as well as my own personal relationships. But in relationships, we've learned as a society over time, that we need to not get carried away with this idea.

With fandom, we're not prone to the same extremes most of the time, but I don't think the basic feelings are different. And if I'm honest with myself, I think there's an element of selfishness in both feelings.

I do sympathize with your point that there ought to be a way to express displeasure. But as I noted in my first long post a few pages back, booing one's home team is likely to be a case of frequent miscommunication between giver and receiver (no matter how we as fans think athletes SHOULD feel about and respond to boos.)

Did any of you listen to Ingles's interview yesterday on his radio show? I think it's interesting that he realized that he should never tell fans how to be fans and that he was wrong in doing so. But at the same time, he kept wanting to let people know that they were misinterpreting the team's lack of success for lack of effort. He clearly continued to be bothered by the boos despite setting the record straight that he doesn't want to tell people how to be fans.

So I don't think it's as simple as: fans boo, players realize that their effort is subpar ,then determine to do better (nothing personal, no hard feelings).
 
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idiot said:
The parts of your original comment that I had trouble with are the parts implying that if you have true commitment/love for the team, you're naturally going to have the possibility of deeply negative feelings as well (otherwise, as you said, you're probably a "casual"). I said I know where you're coming from because I sometimes feel the same in my own fanship, as well as my own personal relationships. But in relationships, we've learned as a society over time, that we need to not get carried away with this idea.
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I don't think you get what I'm saying. It's not about the depth of feelings. It's that success and failure are in a mutually dependent relationship. Their movements are inversely proportional. It's not just us fans, it's the players, too. In the NBA Finals, the happiness of the winning team is always inversely proportional to the unhappiness of the losing team. It has to be that way because both teams want to win more than anything. If you're not that excited about winning the championship, you probably would not be that disappointed if you lost it. That's just how it works. It's how humans work. Look at preseason. Teams don't care if they win or lose, generally. During the regular season, it depends on the circumstances. But there's no situation in the NBA where a loss would crush you, but a win would make you indifferent. Or a win would delight you, but a loss wouldn't upset you.

Everything else in life works that way. You can only be crushed by not getting a job after an interview if you were going to be delighted if you got it. You can't say "I didn't really want it, but I'm crushed I didn't get it." Emotional investment means exactly that. The possibility of both highs and lows, mutually dependent on each other.
 
JimLes said:
I don't think you get what I'm saying. It's not about the depth of feelings. It's that success and failure are in a mutually dependent relationship. Their movements are inversely proportional. It's not just us fans, it's the players, too. In the NBA Finals, the happiness of the winning team is always inversely proportional to the unhappiness of the losing team. It has to be that way because both teams want to win more than anything. If you're not that excited about winning the championship, you probably would not be that disappointed if you lost it. That's just how it works. It's how humans work. Look at preseason. Teams don't care if they win or lose, generally. During the regular season, it depends on the circumstances. But there's no situation in the NBA where a loss would crush you, but a win would make you indifferent. Or a win would delight you, but a loss wouldn't upset you.

Everything else in life works that way. You can only be crushed by not getting a job after an interview if you were going to be delighted if you got it. You can't say "I didn't really want it, but I'm crushed I didn't get it." Emotional investment means exactly that. The possibility of both highs and lows, mutually dependent on each other.
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Maybe I don't get what you're saying. You say it's not about depth of feelings, but by the end of the response you seem to be emphasizing something that sounds very much like depth of feelings.

I don't disagree that success and failure are in a mutually dependent relationship. But it's what we do with those feelings of happiness and unhappiness that I'm trying to focus on. In relationships, we've learned that there's danger in just letting feelings of unhappiness override any logic to the extent that we damage other people. In sports/etc. it's not so clear-cut. And booing isn't the same as assaulting a spouse. But I'd argue those who care about relationships between fans and players will figure out useful ways to deal with their unhappiness (just as losing players don't typically go out and assault the other team or the refs). Booing may or may not be a useful strategy to deal with unhappiness from the fan perspective, but my point is that it's not likely seen as productive from the players' perspective.
 
infection said:
I believe this is fundamentally viewed as racism, however, as it is regarded as a template from a bygone era, where the working class purchase a ticket to play out their inner fantasies of being slave masters and where the players will dance when asked, if they want to survive.
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I see what you're saying, but we would do well to keep the two separate, meaning showing displeasure at the quality of a product that you paid for whether it is sports or anything else, compared to booing at somebody because they're black/white/yellow/green etc.

I have no doubt that the some of the Jazz fans that booed did so because of the really poor quality showing in the first half. I think also as fans, we should be safe in the knowledge that we can cheer and jeer in a appropriate manner of course, without people digging to see whether there are any hidden meaning behind it. We don't want the joys of being a fan to be quashed.
 
Ellipse said:
Firegirl, I love your posts and (sometimes) blunt perspective, but I've seen enough life to understand the pros and cons of this topic without feeling the need to subject myself to the "wisdom" of David Locke.
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Ha, thanks! I just think Locke had some good perspective. He's around the team, knows the guys way more than any of us. It made me realize how I should treat people with more respect. Yes it's just a game, but these are real people and I need to a better job at treating people better. Online especially. Even Yamers...


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I'm not a fan of booing myself, but it's just fans venting their frustration. I really doubt most of them are doing it hatefully. I definitely yell at the tv when I'm home and the Jazz are playing poorly (like it has any effect whatsoever).

I do dislike it more when it's directed at one player on the team, like for Hood example, even if the player is having a frustrating game.

However, if the booing is done at Hayward and Kanter, then boo away.
 
gomretat said:
Utah fans look like complete whiny babies when they go out of their way to boo players years after the fact. I don't care for Enes at all but booing the way we did the entire game is childish. If you have to do it feel good the first game back - ie Hayward - and if it makes you feel better than OK. But get over it and move on. Really bush league.
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It was pretty great when they booed him a few weeks ago. It also threw his game way off (he went 0-6 from the field, played his usual horrendous defense, and was a -30 on the floor), so that was a bonus too. Well he does suck, so maybe it didn't throw his game off that much.
 
When your favorite player jumps ship, just remember the times you booed him. Dont expect them to love playing for you. They may get the same treatment in another arena, but they may just arrive at a point where they realize there truly is no love or loyalty from owners or fans. So they might as well leave whenever the hell they want and not feel any kind of attachment to the city or team.
 
How does anyone call themselves a fan if they boo their own team. When your a fan you stick through the good times and the bad. If your going to a game and booing your own team, you don't deserve to call yourself a fan, because your not. You don't have to agree with everything that is going on, but why in hell would you boo your own team. If your this guy, you need your *** kicked.
 
NPC D4617 said:
When your favorite player jumps ship, just remember the times you booed him. Dont expect them to love playing for you. They may get the same treatment in another arena, but they may just arrive at a point where they realize there truly is no love or loyalty from owners or fans. So they might as well leave whenever the hell they want and not feel any kind of attachment to the city or team.
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They already do this regardless of booing.

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From Quin last night:

“Our fans have a connectivity with the team. Sometimes as a fan, you're just observing. I feel like our fans are participating and kind of living through it with us. If you're not playing good, it's hard for them too. Everybody feels pain. I think you see that more collegiately, so to have a team that's supported at that level and in that way is a pretty special deal for our guys. I've been doing this a little while, and you just don't see that everywhere. And you can feel it—it makes coming to work fun."
 
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