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Global Warming -- How to Talk to a Skeptic

It's been better, tbpfhwy.

I'm not up for a full on poker night this year. 2014 is looking much better for me.

But if it'd cheer you up, I wouldn't mind getting together with the few peeps around the SL valley to watch a game and have some beers at a sports bar.. maybe Iggys.
 
So far, 2013 is shaping up to be one of the four warmest years ever.

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2013/11/

The globally-averaged temperature across land and ocean surfaces for the first eleven months of 2013 (January–November) was 0.62°C (1.06°F) above the 20th century average, tying with 2002 as the fourth warmest January–November on record.

and

The combined average temperature over global land and ocean surfaces for November 2013 was record highest for the 134-year period of record,
 
I'm not up for a full on poker night this year. 2014 is looking much better for me.

But if it'd cheer you up, I wouldn't mind getting together with the few peeps around the SL valley to watch a game and have some beers at a sports bar.. maybe Iggys.

Missed this first time around. Probably isn't going to work for me until 2014, but I'd be down for that. Bout Time isn't a bad place to watch a game, either.
 
At last you give a link I use regularly. . . .

The present weather pattern is moving to a zonal flow though there is still a high "bump" along the west coast. . . but today it looks like California will get a little rain. I think the drought in California is likely as big an economic disaster as the cold and snow in the northeast/central plains/south. . .

It's just terrible to tell me, though, that Detroit has failed to reaach zero only four times in the record books while my ranch, at 4800' elevation in the Great Basin has failed to reach zero four times in December 2013 alone, not to mention each of the past three years.

Looking at geological ice age maps the most remarkable things I see besides Antarctica and Greenland whose elevations of large areas much higher than 4800' definitely have been reasons for the ice accumulations, is the glaciers from Hudson Bay to the Great Lakes at elevations of around a thousand feet reach much lower lattitudes. The reason? Persistent patterns like this winter and last summer's record cold "summer" in the Arctic.

I still don't think "Ice Ages" are really the effect of lower global temps though after an ice age is established the lower temps over the ice areas will contribute towards that. I think ice ages are caused by oceanic evaporation and consequent winter snows inland. The Gulf of Mexico is part of the reason the ice sheets reach as far south as Ohio. . . . No such ice sheets reach as far south in Russia, which is cut off from the warmer seas by high mountain ranges to the south. . . .

You can go on trying to prove anthropogenic effects and resultant impending catastrophes all you want. I've believed we're coming into a new ice age for a long time already, and if you want some bang for the collective economic buck towards actually solving practical problems, start shifting essential industries as well as financial/service capitals south, and get more people relocated in some areas that aren't going to become impractical locations. Al Gore is despicable for his "carbon credit" fraudulent schemes for enriching himself. If you really want to advance your view credibly, start outing foul fraudsters like the whole UN racket ASAP.

Otherwise, you just look like a fascist to me, posing as a "progressive" with a little raft of phony science bought and paid for to back you up.
 
I've believed we're coming into a new ice age for a long time already, ...

I'm down on belief. I prefer evidence. However, I have no expectation of changing your belief with evidence.

Otherwise, you just look like a fascist to me, posing as a "progressive" with a little raft of phony science bought and paid for to back you up.

I don't accept scientific results when I like them and reject them when I don't.
 
I'm down on belief. I prefer evidence. However, I have no expectation of changing your belief with evidence.



I don't accept scientific results when I like them and reject them when I don't.

If it is faulty it should be rejected regardless of wether you like it or not. That is what he was really saying but you already knew that.
 
If it is faulty it should be rejected regardless of wether you like it or not. That is what he was really saying but you already knew that.

That's a very pollyannaish view of using the phrase 'posing as a "progressive" with a little raft of phony science bought and paid for to back you up.' to describe the overwhelming consensus on global warming. That clause is wrong in at least 4 distinct ways, only one of which has anything to do with whether the science involved has any value. He might say he's just rejecting faulty science, he might even believe it, but the reality is that he is rejecting mainstream, valid science.

I don't particularly care if any poster chooses to believe something against reality. However, I reserve the right to point out when their beliefs go against reality, even if they have confused the two.
 
That's a very pollyannaish view of using the phrase 'posing as a "progressive" with a little raft of phony science bought and paid for to back you up.' to describe the overwhelming consensus on global warming. That clause is wrong in at least 4 distinct ways, only one of which has anything to do with whether the science involved has any value. He might say he's just rejecting faulty science, he might even believe it, but the reality is that he is rejecting mainstream, valid science.

I don't particularly care if any poster chooses to believe something against reality. However, I reserve the right to point out when their beliefs go against reality, even if they have confused the two.

Im not getting into all that. You simply took his comment in a way he clearly did not mean it. He is not cherry picking studies simply because he does not like them. He is suggesting that some of the studies on this particular subject are "paid for". Meaning they are faulty on purpose.

If that is the case they should be. Notice the use of "if" in the sentence before this one and in the one you quoted before this.
 
Im not getting into all that. You simply took his comment in a way he clearly did not mean it.

I'm not up to an argument on what babe meant by his remarks. I'll only say that you can say, believe, and mean one thing, yet your position turns out to be something else entirely.
 
I'm not up to an argument on what babe meant by his remarks. I'll only say that you can say, believe, and mean one thing, yet your position turns out to be something else entirely.

Lol, who would have thought that you of all people would turn down a word game argument.
 
Lol, who would have thought that you of all people would turn down a word game argument.

I've never played them. I strive for consistency in how I use words, and to use them the same way that experts use them. I acknowledge that this means sometimes I use them differently from the general public, so it looks like a word game at times.

Also, I've always separated what people intended/meant and what their actions were.
 
I've never played them. I strive for consistency in how I use words, and to use them the same way that experts use them. I acknowledge that this means sometimes I use them differently from the general public, so it looks like a word game at times.

Also, I've always separated what people intended/meant and what their actions were.

Hahahahahaha. You amaze me. I'm not attacking you at all. Actually the opposite. Your dedication to your interpretation of reality is just astounding. That level of dedication needs to be admired.

I'd rep you if I have not recently done so.
 
Your dedication to your interpretation of reality is just astounding. That level of dedication needs to be admired.

All humans are dedicated to their own interpretations of reality, I'm no exception.

You're just as dedicated to the notion that I do play word games instead of making serious arguments. So much so, that you believe it despite never being able to bring up situations where I am playing them.
 
That's a very pollyannaish view of using the phrase 'posing as a "progressive" with a little raft of phony science bought and paid for to back you up.' to describe the overwhelming consensus on global warming. That clause is wrong in at least 4 distinct ways, only one of which has anything to do with whether the science involved has any value. He might say he's just rejecting faulty science, he might even believe it, but the reality is that he is rejecting mainstream, valid science.

I don't particularly care if any poster chooses to believe something against reality. However, I reserve the right to point out when their beliefs go against reality, even if they have confused the two.

OK, let's put it in clearly scientific terms.

It does not matter how many scientists believe something, or how many publications are amassed in "peer-reviewed journals", or who says what or how many say it. When it's wrong, it's wrong. You can call it science if you like, but fifty years from now there will be another "whole raft" of intellectual apologists for falsehood with another wrong-headed idea, and another bumper crop of political opportunists paying them to churn out phony "science".

I will never concede that such fashions are "science".

The reality is that our atmosphere has been steadily depleted of an essential for life on this planet. . . . carbon dioxide. . . . it does keep us a little warmer, and it does sustain a higher level of plant growth and higher levels of every kind of life that feeds off that production.

There isn't much of a geological history of ice ages prior to the decline in carbon dioxide to levels near what we are calling "too much". The whole pack of scientists you have in your corner. . . . or who, rather, have found it possible to get research funding by promising to produce "evidence" and studies sustaining the current intellectual and political fashion. . . . are all just wrong. . . . but, worse, corrupt and phony scientists.
 
I'm down on belief. I prefer evidence. However, I have no expectation of changing your belief with evidence.



I don't accept scientific results when I like them and reject them when I don't.

OK, let's deal with my belief.

I see carbonate beds of epochal scale all around me. In Utah geologists have measured in some places total bed thicknesses of 18,000 feet in places, with perhaps an average of 5,000 feet statewide, including Colorado plateau region. Almost every geological epoch is represented by some carbonate here except about the last fifty million years. For much of Utah's geological history, the area was continental shelf space. One epochal shoreline was forty miles east of me, one was ten miles west. At one time there was a "Sevier Orogenic Uplift" which raised a hundred mile square area to Everest heights, the source of the Colorado Plateau sediments. So how much carbon dioxide does the worldwide carbonate rock represent, if it were still in our atmosphere as it once was???

Geological facts prove to me that Earth's atmospheric carbon dioxide has been decreasing for hundreds of millions of years, since the dawn of Cambrian time. Scientists have documented this repeatedly with vast amounts of research results. Our ice ages have occurred relatively recently while atmospheric carbon dioxide was in the range of todays levels to maybe five times as much. So if we politically decided to cure the carbon dioxide deficiency, we could perhaps estimate the cost of dissolving all the carbonate rock, and the cost of replacing the annual loses to more carbonate deposition under warm shallow seas. . . . I'd be calling politicians and scientists who advocated doing that nutjobs and whackos, especially if it was a globalist scheme for transferring vast powers to governments worldwide at taxpayert expense, and at the cost of denying reasonable people the privilege of doing as they think best. . . .

My belief that our carbon dioxide atmosphere is too low has actually more scientific evidence than the belief that it is too high. Mine is the best science, the best intelligence, and most honorable position for a rational human being to take.

Your belief that an anthropogenic increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide is a catastrophe that justifies transferring to government the power to regulate human activity on a global and intensively invasive scale is not science at all. It is politics.

The politics has hijacked what "science" we once had, and "science" has been transformed from an objective process of study and determining truth into a merely political propaganda operation.

I don't need to dispute a rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide from .03 to 0.04 %, or the relation of that to perhaps a rise of 1.5 F in mean global temps over a few decades to scientifically debunk the current crop of bought-and-paid for political hacks who call themselves scientists and join in the chorus that these results justify global action that will transfer wealth to a privileged few at the common expense of the general quality of life of billions of human beings. The transfer of power to government and the loss of liberty and reasonable choices for personal actions is the objective of this scam..

The fact that you go along with it blindly believing what a crop of hacks are telling you, however it relates to the research results does not change the fact that it is no longer "science" when politics and impassioned advocacy for vast increases in government power becomes the objective of the debate. You are not a scientist at all, you do not properly understand what "evidence" is, or "fact" is, or "science" is, because you insist of driving the pure science over the political cliff to non-objective interpretations and purposes.

you and a whole generation of scientists financially-dependent on the political teats of elitist governance, who have lost sight of what it means to be objective, independent, and reasonable persons of ordinary integrity.

you tag the transient rise in temps and atmospheric carbon dioxide as "bad". That's not science. That's politics.
 
I feel the need to post my all-time favorite response to charges that today's science is just as wrong as the last generation's science and that all scientific thoughts of today will be invalidated by future generations so believing in mainstream science is foolish. I realize that's a very specific favorite, but I'm a very specific person.

The Relativity of Wrong
By Isaac Asimov

I RECEIVED a letter the other day. It was handwritten in crabbed penmanship so that it was very difficult to read. Nevertheless, I tried to make it out just in case it might prove to be important. In the first sentence, the writer told me he was majoring in English literature, but felt he needed to teach me science. (I sighed a bit, for I knew very few English Lit majors who are equipped to teach me science, but I am very aware of the vast state of my ignorance and I am prepared to learn as much as I can from anyone, so I read on.)

It seemed that in one of my innumerable essays, I had expressed a certain gladness at living in a century in which we finally got the basis of the universe straight.

I didn't go into detail in the matter, but what I meant was that we now know the basic rules governing the universe, together with the gravitational interrelationships of its gross components, as shown in the theory of relativity worked out between 1905 and 1916. We also know the basic rules governing the subatomic particles and their interrelationships, since these are very neatly described by the quantum theory worked out between 1900 and 1930. What's more, we have found that the galaxies and clusters of galaxies are the basic units of the physical universe, as discovered between 1920 and 1930.

These are all twentieth-century discoveries, you see.

The young specialist in English Lit, having quoted me, went on to lecture me severely on the fact that in every century people have thought they understood the universe at last, and in every century they were proved to be wrong. It follows that the one thing we can say about our modern "knowledge" is that it is wrong. The young man then quoted with approval what Socrates had said on learning that the Delphic oracle had proclaimed him the wisest man in Greece. "If I am the wisest man," said Socrates, "it is because I alone know that I know nothing." the implication was that I was very foolish because I was under the impression I knew a great deal.

My answer to him was, "John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

The basic trouble, you see, is that people think that "right" and "wrong" are absolute; that everything that isn't perfectly and completely right is totally and equally wrong.

However, I don't think that's so. It seems to me that right and wrong are fuzzy concepts, and I will devote this essay to an explanation of why I think so.

When my friend the English literature expert tells me that in every century scientists think they have worked out the universe and are always wrong, what I want to know is how wrong are they? Are they always wrong to the same degree? Let's take an example.

In the early days of civilization, the general feeling was that the earth was flat. This was not because people were stupid, or because they were intent on believing silly things. They felt it was flat on the basis of sound evidence. It was not just a matter of "That's how it looks," because the earth does not look flat. It looks chaotically bumpy, with hills, valleys, ravines, cliffs, and so on.

Of course there are plains where, over limited areas, the earth's surface does look fairly flat. One of those plains is in the Tigris-Euphrates area, where the first historical civilization (one with writing) developed, that of the Sumerians.

Perhaps it was the appearance of the plain that persuaded the clever Sumerians to accept the generalization that the earth was flat; that if you somehow evened out all the elevations and depressions, you would be left with flatness. Contributing to the notion may have been the fact that stretches of water (ponds and lakes) looked pretty flat on quiet days.

Another way of looking at it is to ask what is the "curvature" of the earth's surface Over a considerable length, how much does the surface deviate (on the average) from perfect flatness. The flat-earth theory would make it seem that the surface doesn't deviate from flatness at all, that its curvature is 0 to the mile.

Nowadays, of course, we are taught that the flat-earth theory is wrong; that it is all wrong, terribly wrong, absolutely. But it isn't. The curvature of the earth is nearly 0 per mile, so that although the flat-earth theory is wrong, it happens to be nearly right. That's why the theory lasted so long.

There were reasons, to be sure, to find the flat-earth theory unsatisfactory and, about 350 B.C., the Greek philosopher Aristotle summarized them. First, certain stars disappeared beyond the Southern Hemisphere as one traveled north, and beyond the Northern Hemisphere as one traveled south. Second, the earth's shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse was always the arc of a circle. Third, here on the earth itself, ships disappeared beyond the horizon hull-first in whatever direction they were traveling.

All three observations could not be reasonably explained if the earth's surface were flat, but could be explained by assuming the earth to be a sphere.

What's more, Aristotle believed that all solid matter tended to move toward a common center, and if solid matter did this, it would end up as a sphere. A given volume of matter is, on the average, closer to a common center if it is a sphere than if it is any other shape whatever.

About a century after Aristotle, the Greek philosopher Eratosthenes noted that the sun cast a shadow of different lengths at different latitudes (all the shadows would be the same length if the earth's surface were flat). From the difference in shadow length, he calculated the size of the earthly sphere and it turned out to be 25,000 miles in circumference.

The curvature of such a sphere is about 0.000126 per mile, a quantity very close to 0 per mile, as you can see, and one not easily measured by the techniques at the disposal of the ancients. The tiny difference between 0 and 0.000126 accounts for the fact that it took so long to pass from the flat earth to the spherical earth.

Mind you, even a tiny difference, such as that between 0 and 0.000126, can be extremely important. That difference mounts up. The earth cannot be mapped over large areas with any accuracy at all if the difference isn't taken into account and if the earth isn't considered a sphere rather than a flat surface. Long ocean voyages can't be undertaken with any reasonable way of locating one's own position in the ocean unless the earth is considered spherical rather than flat.

Furthermore, the flat earth presupposes the possibility of an infinite earth, or of the existence of an "end" to the surface. The spherical earth, however, postulates an earth that is both endless and yet finite, and it is the latter postulate that is consistent with all later findings.

So, although the flat-earth theory is only slightly wrong and is a credit to its inventors, all things considered, it is wrong enough to be discarded in favor of the spherical-earth theory.

And yet is the earth a sphere?

No, it is not a sphere; not in the strict mathematical sense. A sphere has certain mathematical properties - for instance, all diameters (that is, all straight lines that pass from one point on its surface, through the center, to another point on its surface) have the same length.

That, however, is not true of the earth. Various diameters of the earth differ in length.

What gave people the notion the earth wasn't a true sphere? To begin with, the sun and the moon have outlines that are perfect circles within the limits of measurement in the early days of the telescope. This is consistent with the supposition that the sun and the moon are perfectly spherical in shape.

However, when Jupiter and Saturn were observed by the first telescopic observers, it became quickly apparent that the outlines of those planets were not circles, but distinct ellipses. That meant that Jupiter and Saturn were not true spheres.

Isaac Newton, toward the end of the seventeenth century, showed that a massive body would form a sphere under the pull of gravitational forces (exactly as Aristotle had argued), but only if it were not rotating. If it were rotating, a centrifugal effect would be set up that would lift the body's substance against gravity, and this effect would be greater the closer to the equator you progressed. The effect would also be greater the more rapidly a spherical object rotated, and Jupiter and Saturn rotated very rapidly indeed.

The earth rotated much more slowly than Jupiter or Saturn so the effect should be smaller, but it should still be there. Actual measurements of the curvature of the earth were carried out in the eighteenth century and Newton was proved correct.

The earth has an equatorial bulge, in other words. It is flattened at the poles. It is an "oblate spheroid" rather than a sphere. This means that the various diameters of the earth differ in length. The longest diameters are any of those that stretch from one point on the equator to an opposite point on the equator. This "equatorial diameter" is 12,755 kilometers (7,927 miles). The shortest diameter is from the North Pole to the South Pole and this "polar diameter" is 12,711 kilometers (7,900 miles).

The difference between the longest and shortest diameters is 44 kilometers (27 miles), and that means that the "oblateness" of the earth (its departure from true sphericity) is 44/12755, or 0.0034. This amounts to l/3 of 1 percent.

To put it another way, on a flat surface, curvature is 0 per mile everywhere. On the earth's spherical surface, curvature is 0.000126 per mile everywhere (or 8 inches per mile). On the earth's oblate spheroidal surface, the curvature varies from 7.973 inches to the mile to 8.027 inches to the mile.

The correction in going from spherical to oblate spheroidal is much smaller than going from flat to spherical. Therefore, although the notion of the earth as a sphere is wrong, strictly speaking, it is not as wrong as the notion of the earth as flat.

Even the oblate-spheroidal notion of the earth is wrong, strictly speaking. In 1958, when the satellite Vanguard I was put into orbit about the earth, it was able to measure the local gravitational pull of the earth--and therefore its shape--with unprecedented precision. It turned out that the equatorial bulge south of the equator was slightly bulgier than the bulge north of the equator, and that the South Pole sea level was slightly nearer the center of the earth than the North Pole sea level was.

There seemed no other way of describing this than by saying the earth was pear-shaped, and at once many people decided that the earth was nothing like a sphere but was shaped like a Bartlett pear dangling in space. Actually, the pear-like deviation from oblate-spheroid perfect was a matter of yards rather than miles, and the adjustment of curvature was in the millionths of an inch per mile.

In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after.

What actually happens is that once scientists get hold of a good concept they gradually refine and extend it with greater and greater subtlety as their instruments of measurement improve. Theories are not so much wrong as incomplete.

This can be pointed out in many cases other than just the shape of the earth. Even when a new theory seems to represent a revolution, it usually arises out of small refinements. If something more than a small refinement were needed, then the old theory would never have endured.

Copernicus switched from an earth-centered planetary system to a sun-centered one. In doing so, he switched from something that was obvious to something that was apparently ridiculous. However, it was a matter of finding better ways of calculating the motion of the planets in the sky, and eventually the geocentric theory was just left behind. It was precisely because the old theory gave results that were fairly good by the measurement standards of the time that kept it in being so long.

Again, it is because the geological formations of the earth change so slowly and the living things upon it evolve so slowly that it seemed reasonable at first to suppose that there was no change and that the earth and life always existed as they do today. If that were so, it would make no difference whether the earth and life were billions of years old or thousands. Thousands were easier to grasp.

But when careful observation showed that the earth and life were changing at a rate that was very tiny but not zero, then it became clear that the earth and life had to be very old. Modern geology came into being, and so did the notion of biological evolution.

If the rate of change were more rapid, geology and evolution would have reached their modern state in ancient times. It is only because the difference between the rate of change in a static universe and the rate of change in an evolutionary one is that between zero and very nearly zero that the creationists can continue propagating their folly.

Since the refinements in theory grow smaller and smaller, even quite ancient theories must have been sufficiently right to allow advances to be made; advances that were not wiped out by subsequent refinements.

The Greeks introduced the notion of latitude and longitude, for instance, and made reasonable maps of the Mediterranean basin even without taking sphericity into account, and we still use latitude and longitude today.

The Sumerians were probably the first to establish the principle that planetary movements in the sky exhibit regularity and can be predicted, and they proceeded to work out ways of doing so even though they assumed the earth to be the center of the universe. Their measurements have been enormously refined but the principle remains.

Naturally, the theories we now have might be considered wrong in the simplistic sense of my English Lit correspondent, but in a much truer and subtler sense, they need only be considered incomplete.
 
OK, let's deal with my belief.

I see carbonate beds of epochal scale all around me. In Utah geologists have measured in some places total bed thicknesses of 18,000 feet in places, with perhaps an average of 5,000 feet statewide, including Colorado plateau region. Almost every geological epoch is represented by some carbonate here except about the last fifty million years. For much of Utah's geological history, the area was continental shelf space. One epochal shoreline was forty miles east of me, one was ten miles west. At one time there was a "Sevier Orogenic Uplift" which raised a hundred mile square area to Everest heights, the source of the Colorado Plateau sediments. So how much carbon dioxide does the worldwide carbonate rock represent, if it were still in our atmosphere as it once was???

Geological facts prove to me that Earth's atmospheric carbon dioxide has been decreasing for hundreds of millions of years, since the dawn of Cambrian time. Scientists have documented this repeatedly with vast amounts of research results. Our ice ages have occurred relatively recently while atmospheric carbon dioxide was in the range of todays levels to maybe five times as much. So if we politically decided to cure the carbon dioxide deficiency, we could perhaps estimate the cost of dissolving all the carbonate rock, and the cost of replacing the annual loses to more carbonate deposition under warm shallow seas. . . . I'd be calling politicians and scientists who advocated doing that nutjobs and whackos, especially if it was a globalist scheme for transferring vast powers to governments worldwide at taxpayert expense, and at the cost of denying reasonable people the privilege of doing as they think best. . . .

My belief that our carbon dioxide atmosphere is too low has actually more scientific evidence than the belief that it is too high. Mine is the best science, the best intelligence, and most honorable position for a rational human being to take.

Your belief that an anthropogenic increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide is a catastrophe that justifies transferring to government the power to regulate human activity on a global and intensively invasive scale is not science at all. It is politics.

The politics has hijacked what "science" we once had, and "science" has been transformed from an objective process of study and determining truth into a merely political propaganda operation.

I don't need to dispute a rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide from .03 to 0.04 %, or the relation of that to perhaps a rise of 1.5 F in mean global temps over a few decades to scientifically debunk the current crop of bought-and-paid for political hacks who call themselves scientists and join in the chorus that these results justify global action that will transfer wealth to a privileged few at the common expense of the general quality of life of billions of human beings. The transfer of power to government and the loss of liberty and reasonable choices for personal actions is the objective of this scam..

The fact that you go along with it blindly believing what a crop of hacks are telling you, however it relates to the research results does not change the fact that it is no longer "science" when politics and impassioned advocacy for vast increases in government power becomes the objective of the debate. You are not a scientist at all, you do not properly understand what "evidence" is, or "fact" is, or "science" is, because you insist of driving the pure science over the political cliff to non-objective interpretations and purposes.

you and a whole generation of scientists financially-dependent on the political teats of elitist governance, who have lost sight of what it means to be objective, independent, and reasonable persons of ordinary integrity.

you tag the transient rise in temps and atmospheric carbon dioxide as "bad". That's not science. That's politics.

**** just got real.
 
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