If Gobert and Mitchell both return, I'll watch the games and cheer

[KqWIN]

Yes they will be able to:

1- get two guys that don’t get along to figure it out and play selflessly

2- resist Donovan’s camp demands while CAA and Adidas work overtime to get him to a better market.

3- Retool the roster with the three and D types they need using Royce, Bogey, Mike… cuz three and D wings are everywhere. Do this while not burning up future assets.

4- address the passing deficiency as well.

5- make sure Donovan and Rudy stay healthy… cuz injuries don’t happen this event is completely unlikely. (Obvious sarcasm here… we’ve been actually quite lucky here).

You make it sound like it's mission impossible to build around two star players in their primes locked onto long term deals. I don't think it's easy, but I also don't think it's easy to get back to this point where you have both. The tanking promised land is always there, but it doesn't guarantee anything. I could very easily list out all the potential roadblocks in a tanking situation. But I get it...there's no expectations when you're tanking, so anything and everything is good and that's a comfortable spot to be in.

Personally, I think about all the failures of the FO and Quin and think that if we could just be a little bit better, we'd be in a much better spot. I don't think it's a situation where they tried their best and still failed. I think it's a situation where they failed and refused to acknowledge they failed and did the same thing over and over. Our best chances are probably gone, they have squandered several opportunities and it only gets tougher to make these moves. But the opportunity to win starts and ends with Don+Rudy. If you have those two and they want to play for your team, you do your best to win.

 

[KqWIN]

It would also be nice to see the FO have a ****ing spine in any kind of negotiation. Like we're really thinking about a hypothetical situation where the Knicks get the #4 pick which they don't own and draft Jaden Ivey who becomes so good that they aren't motivated to get Don anymore? Instead of doing the mental gymnastics and engineering such crazy negative scenarios, maybe think about making some non-horrific moves and ponder what that mean for this other team. Even as simple as having a real coach who will implement real defensive principles.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You make it sound like it's mission impossible to build around two star players in their primes locked onto long term deals. I don't think it's easy, but I also don't think it's easy to get back to this point where you have both. The tanking promised land is always there, but it doesn't guarantee anything. I could very easily list out all the potential roadblocks in a tanking situation. But I get it...there's no expectations when you're tanking, so anything and everything is good and that's a comfortable spot to be in.

Personally, I think about all the failures of the FO and Quin and think that if we could just be a little bit better, we'd be in a much better spot. I don't think it's a situation where they tried their best and still failed. I think it's a situation where they failed and refused to acknowledge they failed and did the same thing over and over. Our best chances are probably gone, they have squandered several opportunities and it only gets tougher to make these moves. But the opportunity to win starts and ends with Don+Rudy. If you have those two and they want to play for your team, you do your best to win.

You act like our stars flaws don’t matter… they totally do.

You act like we haven’t tried to get wings… we have… we’ve heard the same lines every offseason.

You act like we get Norman Powell and RoCo and it fixes stuff… it does but it’s not enough.

You act like we can always tank… and while we can always tank by being bad we can’t always sell off our pieces to give that tank an actual shot at working.

You act like guys values don’t change… they can. It could be injury or change in market or need… it could be change in overall mood of the teams… this is an extreme sellers market.

What if Boston retools an extra year around KG and Pierce… they don’t go to 3+ conference finals.

I know I know what about Toronto… well the sold a star for an mvp candidate in the most unique situation that may not happen again. They also had stuff to sell like a top 10 pick and a team that wouldn’t sell to the highest bidder because they didn’t want to send him to the Lakers.

These are all fixable things if you have 2-3 years of runway and assets or young players or cap space to help smooth the cracks… we are negative on all three of those… but yeah let’s see if we can win that play in next year.

 

[KqWIN]

You act like our stars flaws don’t matter… they totally do.

You act like we haven’t tried to get wings… we have… we’ve heard the same lines every offseason.

You act like we get Norman Powell and RoCo and it fixes stuff… it does but it’s not enough.

You act like we can always tank… and while we can always tank by being bad we can’t always sell off our pieces to give that tank an actual shot at working.

You act like guys values don’t change… they can. It could be injury or change in market or need… it could be change in overall mood of the teams… this is an extreme sellers market.

What if Boston retools an extra year around KG and Pierce… they don’t go to 3+ conference finals.

I know I know what about Toronto… well the sold a star for an mvp candidate in the most unique situation that may not happen again. They also had stuff to sell like a top 10 pick and a team that wouldn’t sell to the highest bidder because they didn’t want to send him to the Lakers.

These are all fixable things if you have 2-3 years of runway and assets or young players or cap space to help smooth the cracks… we are negative on all three of those… but yeah let’s see if we can win that play in next year.

Like I said, I can VERY easily pick apart all the things that can go wrong with tanking. But I don’t think I need to make up incredibly odd scenarios that inform my option.

Don and Rudy are not flawless, but every team has flaws. You don’t have to be perfect to win a championship, and the Jazz don’t need to execute perfectly to compete for a title. I think the Jazz have been far from perfect and far from average as well. They’ve don’t a horrific job at building around their two stars….and despite all of that, I’m still of the option that they should have been able to compete with all the teams remaining. I don’t look at this team and feel like they played their best.

If the Jazz were just a little bit better, be it with coaching, drafting, trades, signings they would be a much better team. I’m not looking at pie in the sky scenarios. I’m looking at simply being average and making the obvious moves. And no…I do not believe the Jazz tried to make these moves. If Tony Jones says they were looking for a wing, that’s not good enough for me to say “they tried everything “ when the exact types of players we needed are being traded around for free.

I’d be hypocrite to say that the Jazz have made terrible moves, but also say that Don-Rudy has run its course. Like stitches said, Don-Rudy are not the weakness of this team. They are the cornerstones. Do better around them.

I know the situation between Don and Rudy is tenuous. They aren’t perfect on or off the court. But if we’re not willing to even try to win with two star players in their prime on long term deals…what’s the point? It’s extremely difficult to be in this position and I won’t take it for granted. As long as they’re here, I’d do my best to win with them.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Like I said, I can VERY easily pick apart all the things that can go wrong with tanking. But I don’t think I need to make up incredibly odd scenarios that inform my option.

Don and Rudy are not flawless, but every team has flaws. You don’t have to be perfect to win a championship, and the Jazz don’t need to execute perfectly to compete for a title. I think the Jazz have been far from perfect and far from average as well. They’ve don’t a horrific job at building around their two stars….and despite all of that, I’m still of the option that they should have been able to compete with all the teams remaining. I don’t look at this team and feel like they played their best.

If the Jazz were just a little bit better, be it with coaching, drafting, trades, signings they would be a much better team. I’m not looking at pie in the sky scenarios. I’m looking at simply being average and making the obvious moves. And no…I do not believe the Jazz tried to make these moves. If Tony Jones says they were looking for a wing, that’s not good enough for me to say “they tried everything “ when the exact types of players we needed are being traded around for free.

I’d be hypocrite to say that the Jazz have made terrible moves, but also say that Don-Rudy has run its course. Like stitches said, Don-Rudy are not the weakness of this team. They are the cornerstones. Do better around them.

I know the situation between Don and Rudy is tenuous. They aren’t perfect on or off the court. But if we’re not willing to even try to win with two star players in their prime on long term deals…what’s the point? It’s extremely difficult to be in this position and I won’t take it for granted. As long as they’re here, I’d do my best to win with them.

They did try… they couldn’t get anyone better than Gay to take their money… we don’t get any of the misses back so stating their failures does no good.

The obvious deal getting Powell and RoCo would help but they weren’t willing to add a first or make the financial commitment… what changes now? That would have been an easy deal to do but would have required a first… and we still lose to Dallas.

The three best chances to make a conference finals have all passed the road will get harder… if you think injuries are “odd” then you can expect the conference to be much stronger as Kawhi, Murray, Porter Jr., Dame are all coming back. Reality is one or more team may be hurt and it might be us this time… I don’t expect Donovan and Rudy to go their whole careers without a 6 month or full year absence at some point. Injuries are common and will be catastrophic to their trade value.

We all think this team was super close… in reality they had a few elements that made them statistical fools gold… good but not contender good. I mean their best year came during a pandemic when arenas were empty and teams were staring all g league lineups.

We are also starting this year down one two way wing from past years. Joe was the death blow for this squad… there were a thousand little cuts but that one ended us.

If Donovan was willing to give us five years to complete a retool then spend one more year trying with Rudy I guess and get young on the wing and hope a couple guys develop. Rudy has like 1-2 more years in his prime if we are lucky… his drop off could be steep and it’s a wonder he’s been as healthy as he has.

Donovan plus Rudy and some average 3 and D wings will get us to the 7/8 seed next year… it’s over.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If we retool we will end up looking like the blazers… look at all the deck chairs they rearranged… the lost each deal by a little and now very well could be worse…

 

[KqWIN]

If we retool we will end up looking like the blazers… look at all the deck chairs they rearranged… the lost each deal by a little and now very well could be worse…

Maybe, could also turn out really good like Boston. They were horrid to start the year, major chemistry issues, and many including some in their fan base were calling for major changes. Trade one the J’s….Well you know what, they stuck with it for a bit. They made some small changes in personnel and major changes in attitude. They bought into a new coach and now they are favorites to win the whole thing.

Things can go good or bad whatever path you choose. If I’m a good FO and I believe I can make good decisions, I’m taking that opportunity to build on Rudy and Don over tanking immediately….which once again can happen at any time.

The Jazz weren’t willing to put things on the table. Didn’t want to trade Bogey, Conley, Clarkson etc. If they weren’t willing to do that they weren’t really trying. Jazz had massive issues that were very obvious and had years to address them. There was either no attempt to make these obvious trades, or they didn’t think change always necessary. The result was the same either way, a massive failure in judgement.

This idea that we get worse with players that actually fit around Mitchell+Gobert is insane to me. Of course we would be better with a real roster that makes sense and a coach with real playoff strategy. If you don’t think we would be better, you must also believe that the Jazz made good decisions. Can’t have it both ways. Either the Jazz made the right decisions and maxed out or they made poor decisions and left potential on the table. I don’t think the Jazz get worse by making small positive deals, I think they get a lot better.

If we’re not confident enough to build a team around Don+Rudy, I have no idea why you’d be confident in them building a team from scratch and tanking. I’m not going to be the guy who has the super optimistic view one way but not the other. Getting Don+Rudy out of the tanking process would be very lucky and take several years. Making average moves around Don+Rudy is a reasonable expectation, and if failure comes the tanking option is still there. Rudy’s value may drop, I think Don’s does not change and is more likely to increase as was the case with other disgruntled stars.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Maybe, could also turn out really good like Boston. They were horrid to start the year, major chemistry issues, and many including some in their fan base were calling for major changes. Trade one the J’s….Well you know what, they stuck with it for a bit. They made some small changes in personnel and major changes in attitude. They bought into a new coach and now they are favorites to win the whole thing.

Things can go good or bad whatever path you choose. If I’m a good FO and I believe I can make good decisions, I’m taking that opportunity to build on Rudy and Don over tanking immediately….which once again can happen at any time.

The Jazz weren’t willing to put things on the table. Didn’t want to trade Bogey, Conley, Clarkson etc. If they weren’t willing to do that they weren’t really trying. Jazz had massive issues that were very obvious and had years to address them. There was either no attempt to make these obvious trades, or they didn’t think change always necessary. The result was the same either way, a massive failure in judgement.

This idea that we get worse with players that actually fit around Mitchell+Gobert is insane to me. Of course we would be better with a real roster that makes sense and a coach with real playoff strategy. If you don’t think we would be better, you must also believe that the Jazz made good decisions. Can’t have it both ways. Either the Jazz made the right decisions and maxed out or they made poor decisions and left potential on the table. I don’t think the Jazz get worse by making small positive deals, I think they get a lot better.

If we’re not confident enough to build a team around Don+Rudy, I have no idea why you’d be confident in them building a team from scratch and tanking. I’m not going to be the guy who has the super optimistic view one way but not the other. Getting Don+Rudy out of the tanking process would be very lucky and take several years. Making average moves around Don+Rudy is a reasonable expectation, and if failure comes the tanking option is still there. Rudy’s value may drop, I think Don’s does not change and is more likely to increase as was the case with other disgruntled stars.

Boston????? You mean the team that built their squad doing EXACTLY what I am advocating.

They aren’t even comparable to us… ask 30 GMs if they’d rather build around Tatum and Brown or Rudy and Donovan…. You’d get 30 votes for Tatum and Brown. They were maybe considering a pivot but have like 5-6 two way players and their stars include one top ten player and both guys offer extreme lineup flexibility. They also have a bunch of young prospects still growing and had all their picks so we’re able to add a guy by sending out a late first. They had their solutions on their roster… do we? They have all of their picks do we? They had more cap flexibility do we? They have like 4-5 position flexible pieces do we?

It’s not even close.

Also this corner you think I’m painted into either thinking they did the right thing not trying to improve over Bogey Mike and others or that I agree they were right is super weird and ignores the actual truth of what happened… they canvassed the league and found what they could get was worse than what they had. Bogey and Mike do actually complement Donovan and Rudy… on offense. So sending them out for players that are lateral or backwards moves is dumb AF. That’s what happened. Maybe Mike wasn’t out there but I’m guessing if Ainge could have gotten smart for Conley and a pick he’d have done that.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also we’ve had a lot of the same issues for years… not months… Boston hit a rough patch in the schedule and needed to get rid of Schroeder… it’s a ****** comparison.