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If you were granted the fore-knowledge that the Utah Jazz would never win a title...

vj_74 said:
the journey so far has been well worth it, I agree, But we are talking about the future. In 5-7 years from now there is no guarantee that the things that you love about the Jazz today will still be there.

I desperately want to see Sloan winning it all although the odds are not in his favor. But thats the kind of hope and wish that drives me as a fan. If I know already that he is going to retire ringless(not that he cares about it) it would be a bit painful to watch him coach every night. Same with players like Deron. Every night you'll keep wondering that if this is the last contract Deron is going to sign in Utah and if he is going to bolt. Some of us are already wondering that, but still.

BTW, good thread Jedi.
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Post-1999, there hasn't been many points in a season where I felt the Jazz could actually win the whole thing.

But I remember toward the end of the Stockton and Malone era, probably 2001, where they went on the road and defeated the Blazers in Portland.

It was a significant win, well into the season (maybe January or February) and Portland had entered the game like .5 games up on the Jazz in the WC. With the win, Utah moved into first place atop the west and at that moment, I really started thinking this was the year.

That game sticks out in my mind because there really hasn't been a point since where I believed the Jazz actually had a chance to win it all.

The closest, I'd say, was in 2007 when we advanced to the WCF. But that was quickly shattered after the first two games in San Antonio.
 
I don't think I'm wording my position well. Here's another crack at it:

Then how do you explain prototypical Clippers fans? For all intents and purposes, those fans know the Clippers have no chance whatsoever. They have, historically, set the benchmark for futility that will likely not ever be challenged.

Yet they are fans. And it's not because of hope.

Maybe it's because they liked Bill Walton. Or Danny Manning. Or Elton Brand. Or, now, Blake Griffin. Whoever it is, it was someone they liked.

That is, maybe it's the players that keep fans coming back, and not the chances of the championship.

Do you guys think those fans at the Target Center have any hope whatsoever of winning in the near future (being within this decade)? Of course not. Yet the place sells 15,000-20,000 seats every game because, presumably, Kevin Love and Corey Brewer and whoever else are exciting to watch.

I would be the same way with this hypothetical Jazz. I happen to like Deron et. al, I think they are exciting, and I admire their work ethic. To me, that would be enough.
 
But they don't know, chem.

They might think they won't win a championship anytime soon, however, that doesn't change the fact they still hold out hope every year the team will get it together and produce a surprising season.

Which I think happened in 2006 when they made the second round of the playoffs and nearly took out the Suns - which would've put them in the Conference Finals.

I don't think, when the season started, most Clipper fans thought they would be a game away from the Western Conference Finals.

Yet it happened and though they didn't win the championship, it proved that nothing is set in stone.

That's the point and 2006 really solidified that for Clipper fans. Every year could be that year. That, I believe, is what keeps them coming back.

It's not that they think they'll win the championship - but that they believe they can produce a surprising season that maybe begins the foundation for consistency that ultimately leads to the NBA Finals and subsequently the NBA Title.

I mean, when the Jazz moved to Salt Lake, they were an awful franchise. No one could have ever expected they would position themselves for the run they've had over the last 26 years. They went almost a decade without making the NBA playoffs and then, out of the blue, they win the division in 1984 and the rest is history.

Who's to say that won't happen to the Clippers? Sure, it's unlikely - but we don't know. Just like no one in 1983 could have predicted a 30-win team would go on to produce 26 non-losing seasons in 26 years.

Has it led to an NBA Championship? No - but in 1992, we held out hope it would. In 1996, we kind of thought it might. In 1998, we all expected it would.

Hard to imagine game six of the 1998 NBA Finals having any emotional significance if we knew Michael Jordan would rip our hearts out like that.

But we watched. We watched because we believed our Jazz could win.
 
I see your point and hope you see mine.

It's my opinion, after all. Yes, I would stay a fan if only for the work ethic of the players.
 
I think you would stay a fan. I think we'd watch the Jazz similarly to how we watch reruns of our favorite sitcoms.

But I doubt you'd have as much emotional investment in them if you knew, beyond a doubt, they would never win a championship.

You know, I look at your sig and here you're quoting John Stockton's three to send the Utah Jazz to the NBA Finals.

That was a great moment because Utah finally found themselves four wins away from winning it all. On that night, I think you'd have a hard time finding one Jazz fan who didn't think Utah had a chance of beating the Bulls. That's what made his shot so special. We believed.

I'm not so sure anyone would have found that shot as exciting and monumental as it was if we all knew, a week and a half later, the Bulls would wrap up their fifth NBA Championship.

It becomes a pointless shot, does it not?
 
chemdude1232 said:
I don't think I'm wording my position well. Here's another crack at it:

Then how do you explain prototypical Clippers fans? For all intents and purposes, those fans know the Clippers have no chance whatsoever. They have, historically, set the benchmark for futility that will likely not ever be challenged.

Yet they are fans. And it's not because of hope.

Maybe it's because they liked Bill Walton. Or Danny Manning. Or Elton Brand. Or, now, Blake Griffin. Whoever it is, it was someone they liked.

That is, maybe it's the players that keep fans coming back, and not the chances of the championship.

Do you guys think those fans at the Target Center have any hope whatsoever of winning in the near future (being within this decade)? Of course not. Yet the place sells 15,000-20,000 seats every game because, presumably, Kevin Love and Corey Brewer and whoever else are exciting to watch.

I would be the same way with this hypothetical Jazz. I happen to like Deron et. al, I think they are exciting, and I admire their work ethic. To me, that would be enough.
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And what if Deron and Sloan leave the Jazz and the team have some mediocre players and a so-so system? Would you still be attending games?
There is a slight difference between knowing that it is unlikely that you will win anytime soon(which we all know now) vs knowing that you cannot win it AT ALL . THats what some of us are emphasizing here. That slight sliver of hope probably exists even for Clipper fans, after they fired Dunleavy and drafted Griffin. They might not win anything anytime soon, but that longterm sliver of hope is what keeps everybody going. Of course there might be some fans who show up for Clippers games just because they are the home team and they are season-ticket holders. Or because they are fans of certain players. But I would'nt call any fan disloyal who drops off, knowing that his team wont win anything in his lifetime.

I think as much as the question is hypothetical your answer too lies in the hypothetical realm of things. It is easier for you to say NOW that you will root for them no matter what. But I believe it will be very very difficult with that kind of foreknowledge.For anybody.

Knowing not how will it end is a big part of the excitement and thrill. Even if we think that a championship is highly unlikely this year, we dont know how far we will go. Will we defeat the Lakers but lose to somebody else? Or just maybe, we even get to the Finals with a lucky matchup or two. These are the kind of little things that keep you going in the long run. Atleast for a lot of us, who are'nt SLC or even Utah residents and who follow the team because of who they are and how they play.
 
Sean said:
I think you would stay a fan. I think we'd watch the Jazz similarly to how we watch reruns of our favorite sitcoms.

But I doubt you'd have as much emotional investment in them if you knew, beyond a doubt, they would never win a championship.

You know, I look at your sig and here you're quoting John Stockton's three to send the Utah Jazz to the NBA Finals.

That was a great moment because Utah finally found themselves four wins away from winning it all. On that night, I think you'd have a hard time finding one Jazz fan who didn't think Utah had a chance of beating the Bulls. That's what made his shot so special. We believed.

I'm not so sure anyone would have found that shot as exciting and monumental as it was if we all knew, a week and a half later, the Bulls would wrap up their fifth NBA Championship.

It becomes a pointless shot, does it not?
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I think you are convoluting real life with this hypothetical. That shot was real and not in this hypothetical scenario. We did have hope, yes. Because it was real life.

Would the shot be less monumental if we knew the team wouldn't win? Maybe, maybe not. It was still a great shot though. Maybe that alone drew people in - and damn what happens in the finals - because however you twist it or whatever happens in the future, sinking a shot to win *any* game is pretty cool. It could have been a game-winning shot in a meaningless game in the middle of February against the Bucks. It's still a cool shot.

I also know that - win or lose in the finals - I was still going to be proud to be a Jazz fan. Not because we had hope of beating the Bulls (though in real life that was an aspect, sure), but because my boyhood idols worked hard and it showed. They still lost, right? Do I think any less of them? Not at all.

vj_74 said:
And what if Deron and Sloan leave the Jazz and the team have some mediocre players and a so-so system? Would you still be attending games?
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Now this is a different question. If the Jazz dumped Sloan, Deron, and all the hard-working guys and drafted Ricky Davis-type players and Antoine Walker-type players etc. and made some sort of commitment to this new brand of basketball then yes, I'd leave for the Thunder (I am an Oklahoma native, after all).
 
As I've already mentioned, there is no real meaningless game when the outcome of a season is not set in stone. It only becomes meaningless when you know exactly how it will end.

Winning in the regular season is pretty important because it's the bedrock of a successful run at a title.

If we knew, not just expected, Utah had no chance at an NBA title, I think it would take out a lot of the emotion we have in this game. It's why attendance is bad for bad teams and good for good teams. It's why the ESA can have a playoff atmosphere during the regular season when the games actually matter and feel like a tomb when they don't.

I remember Jazz games back in 2004-05 and there is a distinct difference in crowd noise and emotion invested compared to games that we're seeing this season.

When it becomes clear a team is eliminated from the playoff picture (meaning their NBA title chances are gone), the games become meaningless and the fans' attitude adjusts to those expectations.

Now take just one season and expand it to a lifetime and I think you'd find many, many fans investing less in the Jazz than they do currently if they knew there was no chance of winning a championship.

Hell, let's say you knew the Jazz would lose 120-95 - would you buy tickets to that game? Or would you choose tickets to another?
 
I think this boils down to what you look for in a franchise.

Is winning the (real) point? Sure. Is it the be-all end-all of life as a sports fan? Not to me.

I follow my university's basketball squad. I know that their chances of winning in March are so minuscule that they might as well not even try. But I'm still a fan of the squad because the players are out there having fun, enjoying the camaraderie, and working hard. Fine for me.

Another example: the point of going to, say, a classical piano concert is to hear great piano playing, right? But what if the person you are watching isn't the best player in the world, and has no chance of becoming the best? Does that diminish their skills or your enjoyment of the music? Not in my book.
 
Mantis said:
If a different team won the NBA title every year, on average it would take 30 years for a team to win a Championship.

However, in the 30 years since 1980, only 8 teams have won an NBA Championship: Lakers (9), Bulls (6), Celtics (4), Spurs (4), Pistons (3), Rockets (2), 76ers (1), Heat (1).

During the same time period, the Blazers, Suns, Magic, Sonics, Jazz, Knicks, Pacers, Nets, Mavericks, and Cavaliers (10 teams) have all made the Finals without also winning a Championship in that time (although the Blazers, Sonics and Knicks all won in the '70s), leaving 12 teams that have never even made the Finals in the last 30 years.

In other words, if you are an NBA fan, you are more likely to follow a team that NEVER made the Finals in the last 30 years than one that made the Finals at all, and least likely to follow a team that won a Championship. Yet, the Clippers, Nuggets, Raptors, Wizards, etc still have fans, although history says they have no hope.
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I was talking to my friend about this, isn't it amazing that in the past 30 years only 2 teams have one their first and only NBA championship...NBA has the most parity in sports, at least baseball and football you can't always predict who is going to win (Giants this year!?, football giants a few years back). I would be shocked if one of the top 4 favorites going into this season (celtics, magic, heat, lakers) don't win it all.
 
chemdude1232 said:
I think this boils down to what you look for in a franchise.

Is winning the (real) point? Sure. Is it the be-all end-all of life as a sports fan? Not to me.

I follow my university's basketball squad. I know that their chances of winning in March are so minuscule that they might as well not even try. But I'm still a fan of the squad because the players are out there having fun, enjoying the camaraderie, and working hard. Fine for me.

Another example: the point of going to, say, a classical piano concert is to hear great piano playing, right? But what if the person you are watching isn't the best player in the world, and has no chance of becoming the best? Does that diminish their skills or your enjoyment of the music? Not in my book.
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Music is not sports. Winning is a big part of sports. Otherwise why do you even root for a team? You WANT them to win right? Like Sean said, on paper we could remain Jazz fans even in this hypothetical scenario. But in the back of the mind there would be this constant reminder that this team is not going to win it all anytime and that will be gnawing away at your excitement or passion. Even as you root for your team that belief that they COULD win will be gone. Say the Jazz do reach the Finals in 2015. You would know before hand that they are going to lose the Finals, so it would kill all the excitement and make it pointless and almost hypocritical to hold up placards and posters for chewrring up the team. It will be like as if you are trying hard to delude yourself.
 
during the 95 playoffs when i felt like we had all the pieces to win it all and jordan came back but clearly wasn't himself, we win 60 games, but lose the first round i said to myself i would never watch a jazz game again. i kept it up until months into the next season and the hype starting building up and i couldn't resist. if you tell me than that there is no hope i would have tuned the jazz out for a long time, i don't want to say forever because u never know.
 
I thought the Jazz had a chance to win it in 06-07 and 07-08 seasons, and also last year before the loss to PHX in last regular season game. I am serious about this. Nobody could be as angry and disappointed as me after that stupid Gasol trade. I am an optimistic, hopeful, passionate and ambitious person and fan. Back in those years, I sincerely liked the Jazz' chances and thought at least another WCF or Finals would be convincing for me. This year, I feel like the Jazz not only need everybody to get and stay healthy, but also need the offense start clicking in addition to the building a consistent defensive approach. Those are attainable. I just cannot agree with anybody who thinks the chances have always been slim. Maybe I'm too optimistic.

Back to the original question, my answer still would be "Yes", I love watching basketball and a group of guys coming together and try to implement a system, play in a cohesive, sharing way to succeed. THat's exactly one of the reasons why IMO watching Jazz basketball is a privilige for basketball fans around the world.
 
Sean said:
Think of this way - let's say you're able to somehow peer into the future (not in a Back to the Future way where you can alter what hasn't happened yet, rather just a preview of what is to come) and you find out that, 90 years from now, the Jazz still haven't won a title, the whole way you come at a game changes.
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That describes you, perhaps. I'd still watch your hypothetical Miami series, and revel in my misery.
 
Look for all intents and purposes we are not going to get there any time soon. This team is not championship caliber. It won't happen when CJ is supposed to be our scoring punch off the bench. It won't happen when Millsap and AK seem to out of touch and are expected to be our starting 3 and 4 (both are better suited to bench play). It won't happen with only one all-star caliber player on the team - which is why we are a little concerned that D Will will bolt when his contract is up. It won't happen when Al Jefferson is expected to go up against the premier 7-footers in this league (he would be far better as power forward along-side a 7-footer true center). It won't happen with Raja Bell as our starting 2 - he is just too far on the downward side of his career. With our current players we are not a championship team, regardless of the time they play together, regardless of the system.

Don't get me wrong, second-rate players will earn second-rate accomplishments. Second is not bad. Another trip to the WCF is entirely possible. Advancing in the playoffs is always a possibility. I am not saying that with our current players we are the crappiest team in the league and they should all be shot. We have some very good role players. But a team full of nothing but role players will not win it all. Even the Bulls, who had pretty much a team of one-trick-ponies, put them alongside 2 HOF'ers.

I am just saying that we need to face reality, that we are not a championship team, and enjoy what we will get for the next year or 2. But I hope to all that is holy that they prove me wrog.

And as has been said over and over in this thread. Hope. That is what keeps fans going. At least, that is what keeps me going, and many others I know. Hope that we can enjoy the wonder and magic of winning it all. That is not over-rated. If this guy can get this excited about this thing imagine how it will be when we win the NBA championship:

[video]https://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/index/?cid=62370

That sums it all up. For us, the fans, the championship would be just as meaningless, but it would mean just as much.
 
Funny how jaded Jazz fanz have become. So many of you try to temper your hope by saying you already know we wont win, we arent 'championship' material, blah blah.
I call BS. B motha ****ing S! You wouldnt still be here and wouldnt still be a fan if you had NO hope at all that we could win. You are just weak and scared to be hurt so you fool yourself into thinking you already know what will happen. That way, when the Jazz (as they probably will, granted) lose, you can say you knew it would happen, and protect yourself from getting hurt. Sorry to say, that isnt being a truefan, IMO. Live and die with the team. If you cant do that, go find a team you KNOW will win.
 
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