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Its Time to Tank

MT Steve said:
The Jazz were going to make that trade regardless of if they owned their own pick this year or not.
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You are correct and I will specify this more:
Jazz were gonna make the rotational changes anyways (increase Kessler minutes and sit Vando more, increase Ochai minutes and sit Beasley more, increase Sexton minutes and bench Conley).

Had they not made the trade, the value of those 3 would have gone down (due to decreased opportunity/production) and we are worse in the cap at offseason. NAW was a casualty of "making it happen", but those 3 were always going to go out the door rather now than after their value is gone.
 
hgb said:
We've seen earlier that he can shoot (while not being a top-tier NBA shooter at all), but at the moment his confidence is completely shot (as it were), and almost everything he does seems awkward.
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Ya, now that bolmaro is gone simone might be the worst player on the team. And that is saying something as this team has A LOT of bad players.
 
fishonjazz said:
Ya, now that bolmaro is gone simone might be the worst player on the team. And that is saying something as this team has A LOT of bad players.
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Yeah, right now he's playing incredibly badly. I believe he can get back to be a reasonably useful role player if he regains his confidence, but it doesn't look so likely right now.
 
This jazz team has micah potter, damian jones, frank jackson, juan tascano anderson, kris dunn, udoka azibuke, johhny juzang, simone fontecchio, rudy gay, tht, and two rookies (neither very high picks). Plus a rookie head coach. Then you have a guy known as a career backup chucker, a guy known most for being flopper, a guy who everyone says cant play point guard playing point guard and Lauri markennan.

9 or 10 of those guys probably shouldn't be rotation players in the nba.
 
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fishonjazz said:
This jazz team has micah potter, damian jones, frank jackson, juan tascano anderson, kris dunn, udoka azibuke, johhny juzang, simone fontecchio, rudy gay, tht, and two rookies (neither very high picks). Plus a rookie head coach. Then you have a guy known as a career backup chucker, a guy known most for being flopper, a guy who everyone says cant play point guard playing point guard and Lauri markennan.

9 or 10 of those guys probably shouldn't be rotation players in the nba.
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If I was Will Hardy, I would run every practice by saying...Everyone will have a chance to show, succeed or fail, that they belong in the NBA. You scrub,...YOU...show me you can win.

And then go for it. Danny Ainge can't fault if a team full of scrubs if they start to win...
 
fishonjazz said:
This jazz team has micah potter, damian jones, frank jackson, juan tascano anderson, kris dunn, udoka azibuke, johhny juzang, simone fontecchio, rudy gay, tht, and two rookies (neither very high picks). Plus a rookie head coach. Then you have a guy known as a career backup chucker, a guy known most for being flopper, a guy who everyone says cant play point guard playing point guard and a guy playing at a near-MVP level.

9 or 10 of those guys probably shouldn't be rotation players in the nba.
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FTFY

I think the fixed part is why we are still pretty damn competitive.
 
sip said:
Yep. Almost impossible now. We had to lose the raptor, pacer and thunder games to make it happen. Six is still a possibility but we would have to crash seriously hard. Most likely I think we are looking at 8 to 10 which I would still be happy with. If we would have just lost the raptor and thunder games we would be sitting perfect right now at 29 and 34.
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If the best we can do is 8 - 10th worst, then why not go for the playin spot? I mean, there aren't many rookies who start in the playoffs. It would give those guys a boost and we fall what, 4 spots? Beating out the wolves may mean we get the 12th pick anyways.

This season I was all on for the tank, but tanking for a 5 spot boost from 15th to 10th really isn't a big booster. 17th to 8th, sure. But we haven't been tanking like we should have.
 
The Jazz Wonderbra said:
If the best we can do is 8 - 10th worst, then why not go for the playin spot? I mean, there aren't many rookies who start in the playoffs. It would give those guys a boost and we fall what, 4 spots? Beating out the wolves may mean we get the 12th pick anyways.

This season I was all on for the tank, but tanking for a 5 spot boost from 15th to 10th really isn't a big booster. 17th to 8th, sure. But we haven't been tanking like we should have.
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Because having those extra 5 spots of players to choose from is a big deal. Also we have seen plenty of teams jump from the 8th spot or later into the top 3 during the lottery over the years and that was with worse odds. Now with the new odds we should see quite a few more teams in that 8-10 range jump into the top 3 going forward.
 
sip said:
Also we have seen plenty of teams jump from the 8th spot or later into the top 3 during the lottery over the years and that was with worse odds.
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What's happened in previous lotteries doesn't change the odds one bit. The Jazz have a better chance right now of making the playoffs than getting into the top3 IF they should fall into 8-10 spot.
 
Korisfani said:
What's happened in previous lotteries doesn't change the odds one bit. The Jazz have a better chance right now of making the playoffs than getting into the top3 IF they should fall into 8-10 spot.
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Yes and making the playoffs has what benefit long term? Winning the lotto has what benefit long term? I would willingly give up a 100% shot at going to the playoffs for a 5%-10% shot at the guys that will go 1-3 in this draft. If you land 8-10 then so be it... going from 12-13 to 8-10 has a trade value of 1-2 good first round picks... its meaningful.
 
sip said:
Also we have seen plenty of teams jump from the 8th spot or later into the top 3 during the lottery over the years and that was with worse odds. Now with the new odds we should see quite a few more teams in that 8-10 range jump into the top 3 going forward.
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Korisfani said:
What's happened in previous lotteries doesn't change the odds one bit. The Jazz have a better chance right now of making the playoffs than getting into the top3 IF they should fall into 8-10 spot.
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You ignored the 2nd part of his comments. A couple of years ago the league revamped the lottery odds. He was saying we saw higher-seeded teams ending up in the top lottery spots over the years, but now with the new revamped odds we will see even more late lottery teams end up in the top 3, so a lottery spot within the top 10 has greater value now, from a draft perspective.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yes and making the playoffs has what benefit long term?
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Maybe something, maybe nothing.

But for the Jazz to now tank, that would have to come from Hardy and the players. The FO did what it did and their part is done - whatever you decide to call it. But to call for tanking, is to call for Hardy and the team to do it.

LogGrad98 said:
You ignored the 2nd part of his comments.
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I didn't. They edited their message just as I was responding to it. The original message sounded much more as if the odds are better than thought, because some teams have happened to be lucky.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yes and making the playoffs has what benefit long term?
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Im all for the high pick but playoff experience for players and seeing if Hardys system holds water in a series has value.

But still... give me the pick. Lets do playoffs next year when we have at least a dark horse level squad.
 
Korisfani said:
Maybe something, maybe nothing.

But for the Jazz to now tank, that would have to come from Hardy and the players. The FO did what it did and their part is done - whatever you decide to call it. But to call for tanking, is to call for Hardy and the team to do it.


I didn't. They edited their message just as I was responding to it. The original message sounded much more as if the odds are better than thought, because some teams have happened to be lucky.
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Players and coaches generally don’t participate in tanking… it’s a front office activity… and there is very little they can do at this point.

Hardy may adjust rotations at the suggestion of the front office… but it isn’t them going and saying “please lose more”. It’s them saying they’d like to see Ochai featured more prominently or would like to see what Juzang and Fontechio can provide, or we’d like to reward Udoka for being a good soldier, or we need to keep playing Rudy to make sure he doesn’t complain and maybe has some trade value this offseason, or Frank Jackson deserves some time for participating in our g league program…

You get the hint.

The FO also works with training staff I’m guessing and may have some influence there… but would be more like “let’s get sexton at 110% before putting him out there” or “give JC a little extra time to heal from his thumb injury… no need risking making it worse.”
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yes and making the playoffs has what benefit long term? Winning the lotto has what benefit long term? I would willingly give up a 100% shot at going to the playoffs for a 5%-10% shot at the guys that will go 1-3 in this draft. If you land 8-10 then so be it... going from 12-13 to 8-10 has a trade value of 1-2 good first round picks... its meaningful.
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Fine enough argument. But if we had this mentality post all star break we could be setup with a top 5 pick which for me is VASTLY more valuable than a top 10 pick. It just doesn't seem to be the mentality of the team.

Feels like a classic, best for the players vs. best for the management situation. The players are screwing it all up. Whatchagonnado?
 
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