Its Time to Tank

[idiot]

Fair. then there is no such thing as tanking. Any move any team has ever made in the history of the nba could be explained as "getting rid of players you dont see as part of the future" or whatever. I mean lets say we trade Lauri Markennan and Walker Kessler tomorrow. I guess I could just come and post that "Lauri didn't fit the timeline and so we didn't see him as part of the future" and "Kessler cant shoot from outside and we wanted a center who could shoot better to be part of the future" So i could still just say we are just "resetting" or "rebuilding" and not tanking.

I would classify rebuilding/resetting as the larger category (with multiple options within it), and tanking as one of those options (the one that prioritizes losing for the sake of a draft pick over all other options). You can rebuild (including getting rid of certain players that aren't going to be part of your future, and even get draft assets back for them) without tanking.

If you want to equate rebuilding and tanking, then we're just arguing about definitions.

If you want to argue that we've prioritized the best possible draft pick with our actions this year, I'll simply reply that we've done a terrible job at that. We haven't shied away from the possibility of a good draft pick, but we haven't made it the highest priority either.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

If we think the Jazz are tanking this year, they've failed miserably at that task. 538 (takes into account our current players, I think) has us finishing 39-43. Can anyone legitimately point to a "tanking "team that finished 39-43 -- or even 35-47, if we figure the Jazz lose a few more than that projection?

Well, the year Stockton retired and Malone went to the lakers we had less talent than we have now and went 42-40 when all the experts had us winning 10 games. So this unable to tank thing has been tanking the jazz for damn near ever and the one time we did tank correctly we let magic slip through our fingers and as I’m writing this, didn’t we draft Dominique Wilkins and trade him for some somewhat washed up talent. This is depressing

 

[fishonjazz]

Had we traded Clarkson, KO and Sexton for peanuts so that we are starting Juzang, THT and Gay/Fontecchio with Lauri and Kessler.. thats tanking.

I disagree. That would mean we really want a good look at THT and Tech and we love that Gay provides veteran leadership on the court and we think Juzang has a untapped potential that we are trying to tap. That isn't tanking. Sorry.

 

[homeytennis]

Well let's sign Kevin Love and reunite him with Russ and go win a ring.

 

[fishonjazz]

I would classify rebuilding/resetting as the larger category (with multiple options within it), and tanking as one of those options (the one that prioritizes losing for the sake of a draft pick over all other options). You can rebuild (including getting rid of certain players that aren't going to be part of your future, and even get draft assets back for them) without tanking.

If you want to equate rebuilding and tanking, then we're just arguing about definitions.

If you want to argue that we've prioritized the best possible draft pick with our actions this year, I'll simply reply that we've done a terrible job at that. We haven't shied away from the possibility of a good draft pick, but we haven't made it the highest priority either.

I agree we have sucked at it. Lauri is literally the most improved player in the league and all star starter and quite frankly is playing like an all nba mvp caliber player. Which is something that came out of nowhere. We dont get lauri or Lauri plays more like everyone expected and we are right down there with detroit and houston. Also everyone is always saying rookies dont contribute. Yet there is Kessler in our faces contributing big time. If he plays like a typical rookie, especially one drafted where he was drafted, then that would also have kept us right at the bottom. We greatly exceeded expectations by players we thought wouldn't be that good being WAY better than we thought they would be.

 

[idiot]

I agree we have sucked at it. Lauri is literally the most improved player in the league and all star starter and quite frankly is playing like an all nba mvp caliber player. Which is something that came out of nowhere. We dont get lauri or Lauri plays more like everyone expected and we are right down there with detroit and houston. Also everyone is always saying rookies dont contribute. Yet there is Kessler in our faces contributing big time. If he plays like a typical rookie, especially one drafted where he was drafted, then that would also have kept us right at the bottom. We greatly exceeded expectations by players we thought wouldn't be that good being WAY better than we thought they would be.

I completely agree that the Jazz very likely expected to be worse, maybe much worse. But waiting until there's only 1/4 of the season left to make any moves once they saw that they were better means to me that they weren't prioritizing the pick over all other considerations -- in other words, they haven't been tanking. They were willing to let the chips fall where they fell.

 

[fishonjazz]

I completely agree that the Jazz very likely expected to be worse, maybe much worse. But waiting until there's only 1/4 of the season left to make any moves once they saw that they were better means to me that they weren't prioritizing the pick over all other considerations -- in other words, they haven't been tanking. They were willing to let the chips fall where they fell.

Can you think of a scenario in nba history where a team actually did a tanking move?

 

[idiot]

Can you think of a scenario in nba history where a team actually did a tanking move?

Wasn't Philly during the Process all basically tanking? They made sure they were bad enough to get a top pick. It was clear that they prioritized those picks more than anything else.

(And toward the end of seasons, I'd argue that individual teams have tanked to get a better draft spot, even if we can't define their whole season as tanking.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I completely agree that the Jazz very likely expected to be worse, maybe much worse. But waiting until there's only 1/4 of the season left to make any moves once they saw that they were better means to me that they weren't prioritizing the pick over all other considerations -- in other words, they haven't been tanking. They were willing to let the chips fall where they fell.

Transactions cycles man. After the offseason the next transaction cycle is at the trade deadline. They needed to get value so they didn’t just give players away… wasn’t their choice to wait. They would have made the move 10-15 games ago… if that is where the trade deadline fell.

 

[fishonjazz]

Wasn't Philly during the Process all basically tanking? They made sure they were bad enough to get a top pick. It was clear that they prioritized those picks more than anything else.

Only if you spin it that way.
I see it as they were simply playing guys who they wanted to get a better look at and traded away guys who werent part of the future plan. They were just rebuilding.


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[idiot]

Transactions cycles man. After the offseason the next transaction cycle is at the trade deadline. They needed to get value so they didn’t just give players away… wasn’t their choice to wait. They would have made the move 10-15 games ago… if that is where the trade deadline fell.

Of course I know the transaction cycles. That's why I have a hard time interpreting what happens at the trade deadline as hard-core tanking. Sure you can do some soft-core stuff then, but what the Jazz did last week can barely even be called that.

Your're not saying the FO has been desperately flagellating themselves for not trading more before the seasons started, feeling that it was impossible to do any deal during the four months in the interim, are you?

You've kind of made my point, I think. The Jazz have prioritized other things besides just the pick this season. They wanted enough of the right kind of value in return rather than just trade everything to protect the pick. If they were really that concerned, and if they had gone all in on the the-best-asset-we-have-is-our-own-pick logic, they would and could have done different things.

 

[idiot]

Only if you spin it that way.
I see it as they were simply playing guys who they wanted to get a better look at and traded away guys who werent part of the future plan. They were just rebuilding.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

Yep, we're going to be interpreting this differently.